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Re: Latest Health care Entitlement discussion


makfai

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[quote user="Puzzled"]

Well isn't that great!

I emailed them last week to ask for clarification, no reply as such of yet

Went in the next day and was verbally assured that all would be well, despite showing them the letter.

Before any body barks at me that the French debt this and all the rest of it. When I made my plans to come to France, the Carte de Sejour system had ended.

Legally we had to join the CMU system which we did, Legally we could not take out private insurance.

Now I will have to take out private insurance which I probably now won't be able to afford, because I have conditions now that I did not have those years ago. 

So go back to the UK, some of you are thinking, but it is not that easy. I have children in school here and due to the bit of  French system that I am allowed to be in, I cannot sell my house for another two years without being hit with a huge tax bill.

Feeling pretty peed off at the moment.

 

[/quote]

 

I don't think anyone has any right to bark at you.  What you have done is conform to the law. 

EC Directive 2004/38 came into force at the end of April 2006.  As it was issued in 2004 I believe it was reasonable to expect Governments to announce - between 2004 and April 2006 - any plans in relation to it .  As nothing was announced by the French or UK Govts it was reasonable to expect that the CMU system was not being changed despite the directive. 

There was no change to health entitlement in UK, which is based on residence ,and, similarly, there was no change in France.  That seemed equitable between these two EU 'countries'.  People moving to France from UK acted in good faith and in accordance with the legal provisions.

 It now appears that things may be changing in France but there is no sign of a change in UK. 

If things are to change in France then those who were resident in France before the change was introduced have very right to expect it NOT to be applied retrospectively. If it is, then I believe there is a strong case to challenge the decision legally.  HOWEVER, on a practical basis, that would take time and people will be stuck with, what I believe, is an unjust application of the rule.

Bring the changes in if it is felt they are necessary (perhaps that would prompt UK to reconsider its provisions!) but don't make it apply retrospectively to those who are already registered with the CMU or who have produced their E106. The effect on them would be unreasonable and disproportionate.

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[quote user="makfai"]

 It now appears that things may be changing in France but there is no sign of a change in UK. 

[/quote]

But there is, if you look hard enough. Someone - sorry memory fails me at this point - who has posted only today says that, although they live in France under an E121, they have been requested by the UK to submit to a medical examination here in France. This is, presumably, to discover definitively whether they are still entitled to the ever-more-important E121.

Sue

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SUE wrote:

But there is, if you look hard enough. Someone - sorry memory fails me at this point - who has posted only today says that, although they live in France under an E121, they have been requested by the UK to submit to a medical examination here in France. This is, presumably, to discover definitively whether they are still entitled to the ever-more-important E121.

Sue

 

Sorry, I obviously didn't express myself clearly. The point I was trying to make about no change in the UK was alluding to the right to health care in UK which is based on 'residency' rather than 'employment'.

As regards the case quoted, I don't think there is anything unusual in this case as the gentleman has received his E121 before the normal age of 65. As far as I was aware the DWP has always reviewed a person's entitlement to Incapacity Benefit and that is what seems to be happening here.

The gentleman's wife explains that: 'He is 52 (retired living on a police pension) and I am 48.  He has an E121 due to being on Incapacity Benefit but has been called to the CPAM for a medical by the powers that be in the UK DWP.' 

The dwp site http://www.dwp.gov.uk/international/sa29/medical_07.asp contains this advice

If your UK benefit stops for any reason, you will no longer get healthcare cover from the UK. Also, the UK might not give you healthcare cover if:

  • you get a pension from the country where you live or go to live;

  • and you can get healthcare cover under that country's rules.

It is possible that you may have to pay into a sickness insurance scheme in the other country. The sickness insurance authorities there will be able to tell you if you have to do this. If you can, ask them about this before you go to live there.

and also says at  http://www.dwp.gov.uk/international/sa29/benefits_05.asp

UK long-term Incapacity Benefit

If you have been insured for sickness in the UK only, you may be able to get UK long-term Incapacity Benefit anywhere you live or stay in the EEA as long as you satisfy the rules and continue to be unfit for work.

To the best of my knowledge - unless you have a severe disability or illness that falls into an exempt category - the dwp has always exercised the right to check that their client 'satisfies the rules and continues to be unfit for work' and this case does not indicate a change in that regard......but I will be happy to admit if I am wrong.

Info on the medical is at http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/DisabledPeople/FinancialSupport/DG_10023130 and an insight into the questions etc may be found at http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/benefitsinfo/incapacity_for_work.htm?gclid=CMOa9orLuY4CFQGIMAodggHeyQ

As something of an aside: from 2008, and for new claimants only, a new Employment and Support Allowance (ESA) will replace Incapacity Benefit (IB) and Income Support paid on the grounds of incapacity. http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200506/cmselect/cmworpen/616/61607.htm

 

 

 

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There was apparenlty a top-level discussion amongst the French health authorities yesterday, about this subject, and a "clarification" statement expected today.  Has anybody seen it?  The usual websites (French and UK newspapers, Government websites on both sides of the Channel) are reporting nothing that I can see yet.
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Yeah, and they wouldn't have expected that....

Seriously though, I wondered if Cat had heard anything from Madame Maufras, via Charles Bremner.  She was the lady from the French health department who said this would apply to new residents only (but without specifying whether this meant those fully in the CMU de base or anybody already here but still on E106's.) The Connexion info' was contradictory, although it seemed to come from somebody in the same department.  Ultimately, it's the confusion here which needs to be clarified.

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So I took our forms and 'justicatifs' into CPAM in Vannes today and was told that they are accepting the dossiers for renewing claimants, such as ourselves, but there is no indication yet as to what the reply will be. It is up to the 'people in the backroom' to decide wht is going to happen to us all.

Ever felt like a pawn - or is that prawn - before? I do now.

Sue [8-)]

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[quote user="spg"]

So I took our forms and 'justicatifs' into CPAM in Vannes today and was told that they are accepting the dossiers for renewing claimants, such as ourselves, but there is no indication yet as to what the reply will be. It is up to the 'people in the backroom' to decide wht is going to happen to us all.

Ever felt like a pawn - or is that prawn - before? I do now.

Sue [8-)]

[/quote]

How about mushroom, kept in the dark etc, etc.

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[quote user="Russethouse"]

 I'm keeping an eye on The Connextion web site, nothing yet.

Perhaps they have realised its more complicated than they thought.

[/quote]

Just got this news from the Embassy in Paris[:D]

Dear Mr ...........

For info, reassurance from the Health Ministry that the tightening of rules on healthcare provision will not be retrospective, so early retiree Brits already residing in France will be unaffected - they can continue to access healthcare.

But the rules are different for newcomers - they will need medical cover pre-arrival (eg through the E106 form or if they don't qualify, then private insurance) and to cover any gap between the expiry of their E106 form and the time they turn retirement age.

Full details communicated to DH/DWP/FCO below.


DWP Overseas Medical Benefits line

tel: (+44 191 218 1999) (Monday to Friday 8am-8pm)

International Pension Centre
Department for Work and Pensions
Room TC001
Tyneview Park
Whitley Road
Newcastle upon Tyne NE98
1BA

http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/Policyandguidance/Healthadvicefortravellers/DH_4115402


I hope this helps, please do not hesitate to contact me if you have any further questions.

Kind Regards

Cecilia Beloeil
Information assistant
Press and Communications
British Embassy
35 Rue du Faubourg Saint Honoré
75008,
Paris.
Tel: 01 44 51 32 81.
 Fax: 01 44 51 32 34

Pour une information vivante sur le Royaume-Uni, remise à jour au quotidien,

www.ambGB.com

et le guide en ligne du Royaume-Uni

www.i-uk.com/france

 
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I am compiling a list here

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/1017162/ShowPost.aspx

At present, few mutuelles provide full health cover as it is not a common requirement here.  However, some companies (Pacifica is one) are looking into this in view of recent developments.  I will add these as they contact me - I have a few feelers out.

If you currently use a mutuelle for top-up, then it is worth contacting them as individuals as they may be able to help, and it may be one way to cover the "existing conditions" problem, if you are already a client.  If anybody has any luck with this and can add their providers' names to the list - that will help.

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hi

ok found this on another forum

 

DWP Overseas Medical Benefits line

tel: (+44 191 218 1999) (Monday to Friday 8am-8pm)

International Pension Centre
Department for Work and Pensions
Room TC001
Tyneview Park
Whitley Road
Newcastle upon Tyne NE98 1BA

http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/Policyandguidance/Healthadvicefortravellers/DH_4115402


For info, reassurance from the Health Ministry that the tightening of rules on healthcare provision will not be retrospective, so early retiree Brits already residing in France will be unaffected - they can continue to access healthcare.

But the rules are different for newcomers - they will need medical cover pre-arrival (eg through the E106 form or if they don't qualify, then private insurance) and to cover any gap between the expiry of their E106 form and the time they turn retirement age.

Full details communicated to DH/DWP/FCO below.



I hope this helps, please do not hesitate to contact me if you have any further questions.

Kind Regards

Cecilia Beloeil
Information assistant
Press and Communications
British Embassy
35 Rue du Faubourg Saint Honoré
75008,
Paris.
Tel: 01 44 51 32 81.
Fax: 01 44 51 32 34
Q

         dave

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D&O, this was posted by makfai earlier, on another thread.  What does not seem clear yet is which health minister - French or UK, and where the French statement is on this subject.  Most are reassured by this but the question is still begged as to whether by existing residents, this means those already contributing, or those on E106's also. I'm putting out feelers but nothing so far.
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According to Chaos Theory, the world is far more complicated than was previously thought. Instead of the future of the universe being irredeemably fixed, we are, in fact, subject to the whims of random unpredictability.

Tiny actions can change the world by setting off an infinite chain of reactions: famously, if a butterfly flaps its wings in Brazil - it could cause a tornado in Berlin.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/inourtime/inourtime_20020516.shtml

 

If the 'flapping of a butterfly's wings' can do that I am very concerned about the effect of the amount of 'flapping' which the lack of clarity over this issue has caused! [:-))]

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I have also contacted the Embassy, but got a slightly different response to MAKFAI, see below.

Thank you for contacting the Public Enquiries section of the British Embassy, Paris.

 

The British Embassy are in close touch with the French Ministry of Health to clarify the situation regarding healthcare provision for EU citizens who are inactive and below retirement age in France.  The French authorities are applying strictly the EU Directive (2004/38) which will mean modifying the healthcare coverage available to some inactive people, including early retirees, from other EU countries who will be taking up residence in France.

 

However, the French Ministry of Health have assured us that the provision of healthcare to people already resident in France will not be affected."

I also contacted the DWP in Newcastle, who were not very helpful or informed, the person who answered my call said, "if your 106 has run out, then it looks a bit dodgy"

So no help there.

 

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Now I am getting confused and a tad annoyed.

I thought I would telephone the English language helpline for CPAM 08 20 90 42 12

Well that was a waste of time, they are saying that they do not know what the situation is for residents already in the system.

So I told her about the communication between the French Health Ministry and the the British Embassy, she said "I know nothing about that"

So is it a fact that the French Health Ministry are taliking to the British Embassy, but not their own Dept CPAM

This is getting silly, someone please put the estimated 100,00 affected Brits out of their misery.

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Not sure if it really worth posting this, except perhaps to highlight further the total inefficiency of everyone involved here (not on this forum I hasten to add), because from same source I received same reply as JJ BUT with a rather suspicious extra few words in final sentence (underlining is my own).

 

 

However, the French Ministry of Health have assured us that the provision of healthcare to people already resident in France and subscribed through the French system will not be affected." 

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[quote user="JJ"]

So is it a fact that the French Health Ministry are taliking to the British Embassy, but not their own Dept CPAM

[/quote]

Just to set the record straight, there is, strictly speaking, no such single department as CPAM. It is a string of regional organisations, basically one for each département (that's dépt in the geographical sense, not the governmental). All CPAMs are affiliated to CNAM (caisse nationale d'assurance maladie). There are also an even greater number of other caisses, some of which are insurance companies, who provide a similar service to the CPAMs but for the self-employed, for example, and these are gathering under the umbrella of the RSI.

The help line which did not appear to know the answer is run by just one of the CPAMs, the CPAM de la Manche, in St-Lô, 50.

So perhaps we can begin to see why the chain of communication is so tortuous and ineffective.

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[quote user="JJ"]

I have also contacted the Embassy, but got a slightly different response to MAKFAI, see below.

[/quote]

In fact I think that on closer examination the Embassy is saying the same thing as it said to me, i.e.

  1. that persons already resident in France will not be affected but

  2. the changes will apply to people who will be taking up residence in France in the future (whatever that cut off date might be?)

The embassy is clearly re-stating in different words what it said to me i.e. that people who are resident are OK

However, the confusion comes about because of the difference between what the Embassy and the DWP say. The DWP advice to me was that, even if you are resident, once your E106 expires then you will not be allowed to be a part of the CMU.

As I have said, I have referred the DWP's position to the Embassy by email for reconciliation/clarification.  I have not yet received a reply

The most interesting development on the discrepancy is that reported by londoneye saying that the advice is that

However, the French Ministry of Health have assured us that the provision of healthcare to people already resident in France and subscribed through the French system will not be affected." 

 

This seems more in line with what the DWP said but 'subscribed through the French system' requires more accurate definition and a definitive statement is needed on the position of E106 holders and, indeed, the applicable date(s).

 

I have asked londoneye for a copy of the reply so that I can send it on to the Embassy with a reference to my earlier request for clarification between their and the DWP's position.

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Makfai I have forwarded email to you.

I had anyway, upon receipt, requested clarification of the above section (as per my underlining).   No response received yet.

It is always better however to have more than one person asking, so lets see if we receive any clarification and if it says the same thing.

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