mobility and invalidity claimable?

[n11xxy]

As I have mentioned in posts on other forums, we are hoping to move to France to live later n this year, my mother and father in law are coming in with us on a joint venture, they are both retired, and both have good private pensions. My father-in-law has a cronic back problem, which means he needs pills and morphin patches every month, he went to see his own doctor yesterday and they have said he wont be able to get these on the French health service, and wouldnt be able to have insurance to cover as its an existing problem that is although not going to get any worse, it is never going to get better. Also he gets a mobility allowance, either a car is subidised or he is entitled to a cash supliment, would he lose these? or wud ther be things in place in France he would be entitled to?

Can anyone shed any light or help on te matter, as if they have to fund the tablets and patches themselves it really ends a dream of moving for them.[:(]

thanks in advance

Mark

[cooperlola]

How old is he?  And does he claim incapacity benefit?  If he is past UK pensionable age and/or claims incapacity benefit, his medical costs can be covered by an E121. 

[n11xxy]

yes he is past pensionable age, so he doesnt claim incapacity benefits, hey have both worked all their lives and paid a lot of contributuiions and now they find out they wont be entitled? Their doctor told them they might get away with a couple of months then if they are living in France permenantley they wont get anything. [:(]

[cooperlola]

As a UK pensioner he is definately entitled to an E121.  By this method, the UK pays France for his healthcare.  The doctor is talking rubbish!

For the correct answer, and to start the ball rolling to get the necessary paperwork, he should contact the DWP, the first of these two addresses (sorry, I cannot cut and paste one without the other):

The Pension Service:-

Department for Work and Pensions

International Pension Centre

Tyneview Park

Newcastle-upon-Tyne

NE98  1BA

Tel: 0191 225 8604

HM Revenue & Customs:-

HM Revenue& Customs

Benton Park

Newcastle-upon-Tyne

NE98 1ZZ

Tel: 0191 225 8604

He would be well advised to get top up insurance as well though, as he may not get 100% cover, unless his gp here in France believes he qualifies - and anyway this can take some time to sort out and would not cover him for anything unrelated to his chronic conditions.

You'll find lots of information about healthcare here, especially as it relates to the recent changes, on our website - link below.

[n11xxy]

I really appreciate your help and any further help we need. It jus seemed weird that the doctor would say something like that, and they tend to take the doctors word as gosple. So even for the tablets and patches it would be covered? He needs to see a specialist every 2/3 months, how would that work, would that be covered on the E121?

[cooperlola]

He cannot rely on the doctors here advising the same treatments, they would assess him themselves in all probability.  Yes, all medical costs are covered (up to a certain percentage - hence the top up insurace advice) including specialist visits, hospitalisation, dental care, medications etc. What happens with an E121 is that the UK government pays the French one a per capita amount for each form holder.  This entitles them to join the "regime generale" - which is the French state healthcare system, so he would get exactly the same cover as a French national.

I know what you mean about doctors - however you should remind your FIL that his (the doctor's) expertise is in the medical profession in the UK - not how the French healthcare system works!

[Sunday Driver]

Just to expand on the subject of what is covered...

As Cooperlola has explained, the E121 entitles your FIL to affiliate to the state health insurance scheme without him having to paying any 'subscriptions'.  He will be covered for up to around 70% of his treatment costs, so he'd be advised to take out a small private insurance policy (known as a mutuelle) to cover the state shortfall. So, in cost terms, he'd end up paying the premiums for his mutuelle, but apart from that, he won't have to pay for virtually all his consultations/medication.

 

[ebaynut]

If your fil is entitled to DLA in the UK, (which from what you say about mobility I take it he does, although if he claimed after retirement age, it would be called Attendance Allowance), you would do well to follow the following thread, which explains that there has been a recent decision within the European courts, which would appear to make DLA (the care component only, not the mobility part) payable when you move overseas. click here for thread

This decision is currently being reviewed by DWP, who have yet to decide the implications, and will make an announcement click here, for the governments promised clarification.

[n11xxy]

well in response to the earlier replies, my father-in-law has rang the number that was given and told that although at this moment they should be covered,but as there is a new president in France and changes need to be made, they cant promise how things will be in 6 months time. . Any one any ideas?

[cooperlola]

Either that, or he did not make it clear enough that he was of UK state pensionable age.  With an E121 he can live anywhere in Europe and benefit from that country's state healthcare system - as the UK will pay a per capita amount for healthcare.  This is European legislation, nothing to do with France.   The French government has never at any point denied the validity of the E form system, as it is beyond its control.  Maybe the person at the DWP was being over cautious, and didn't understand the regulations, but it seems unlikely - no doubt they are covering themselves, given the problems recently.

Of course M. Sarkozy could make private healthcare compulsary for everybody in France, including the French themselves, but that would probably be a pit which even he couldn't dig himself out of!

[Boiling a frog]

It would very much depend on the question that was asked and whether your FIL gave full information.AFAIK there is no intention of changing the rules for E121 holders.ie If one is in receipt of a UK old age pension one is entitled to an E121 and therefore as SD says entitled to the same health care as French citizens.

[Tony F Dordogne]

It would seem from the OP's posts that father in law got mobility allowance, not DA or attendance allowance.  It is a seperate benefit from DLA and is given to people who are usually registered as disabled with the local authority and who have serious problems with their mobility.  Getting the mobility element of DLA did not and still does not mean that you can get the assistance to buy a car or get the lump sum instead tho it may be a contributing factor to getting it, adds weight to the application.

If he is currently getting DLA (unlikely tho he may be early retired and when he moves, he may still may get an E121) the mobility part of the DLA was NOT covered by the recent court decision, in fact it was specifically excluded in the judgement, it's only the care element that he may be able to retain, assuming that he still gets it.

And the information that he was given about Sarkosy is nonsense though that seems to be the party line in UK offices at the moment - I was told something similar yesterday whilst making en enquiry for a chum about a worker's E106.

[cooperlola]

Tony, the o/p's FIL is past UK state pensionable age, so the E121 is a shoe-in for him.  I agree, the DWP person was talking nonsense, as far as I can see - I don't think the minions want to guarantee anything at the moment and so take the most pesimistic line possible at present.

[Tony F Dordogne]

So that means he wont qualify for DLA if it's allowed again (too old) and if he's not getting AA (over retirement age but apparently likely to be payable in France now, linked to DLA payment decision), it's unlikely that he'll qualify for any immediate benefits here tho a visit to the local disability office in France may shed some light on the matter.

[n11xxy]

 think he has come to terms with the fact his mobility allowance would be terminated ( the car could come over to france for 6mths of the yr but afer that it would have to go back) but he was more worried that what he has left (ie pensions) would be eaten up in him having to purchase his own tablets/morphin patches. He could keep a address in the UK and go over each month to collect te patches, but sometimes he struggles to get up/down stairs so thats not really an option if it meant him travelling and flying on a set day and it happened to be one of his bad days.

this is making interesting reading and  do appreciate this effort.

thank you again

[Tony F Dordogne]

I'm sorry but if he lives in France, he's not allowed to get medical treatment in the UK unless he has an EHIC and it's an emergency.  Doing what he's suggesting, when he's living here is theoretically not allowed, in fact is illegal and the use of accom addresses in the UK is discussed here so often, it's pointless dragging it all up again.

If he lives here and is resident here (taxes, top up insurance, carte vitale) he's not entitled to get his meds in the UK so the travelling problems would fall by the way side.

If his condition is as bad as you indicate, he would almost certainly get 100% cover for his MlDs and would therefore not incur any costs in France for his meds or his treatment so he would not need to break the law.

[Patf]

I think I should add that even when covered by an E121 it's sometimes necessary to pay for some aspect of medical care at the time of receiving it. You are then given a form to fill in to be reimbursed. Also in the time period between arriving in France and getting a carte vitale you would also have to pay then claim back later. So the parents in question should try to bring with them a supply from their UK GP/pharmacy to tide them over the first few months.

[n11xxy]

yes that was one of te reasons they went to the doctors to see if they could get more than a months worth of the the morphin patches, but with the law the way it is, and the Shipman case it all has to be accounted for and they wouldnt let them have more than a month at a time. Tony I was meaning them do anything illegally, they would buy a property in the uk, and use the place in France as a holiday home, and split there time between UK and France, but helping us get set up initially would have menat him wanting to stop for 3-6 moths fulltime

Mark

[Tony F Dordogne]

So nothing changes for them then, they are UK residents on long term holiday here with EHICs.  In that case delete all of the above because none of it applies to them unless of course they stay here for so long in one period that they are regarded by the French authorities as French residents.

In the meantime, he'll most likely have to pay for drugs here or fly back monthly to have his prescription filled and I can't see any way of avoiding one or the other of those as he's not entitled to any other E forms and if he's UK resident, he'll still get his mobility allowance.  Nothing changes for him at all other than he'll be visiting you long term on holiday.

[Sunday Driver]

Mark

I think it's worth looking at the whole aspect of your FIL's situation vis-a-vis the projected move to France.

If he moves here permanently and becomes tax resident, then he is likely to benefit from the lower taxation here (you can obtain a tax simulation on his old age and private pensions) and given that his E121 exempts him from state heathcare subscriptions, the tax saving could well compensate for the need to pay for a small mutuelle and the loss of mobility allowance.

If the figures stack up, then he wouldn't need to go through the convoluted and expensive process of returning to the UK every so often for medecines, etc.

 

[cooperlola]

S/D, if he spent more time in the UK than France, and was resident there, could he not get morphine patches with his EHIC if he was unable to return to the UK just to top up the morphine patches?

[Tony F Dordogne]

Debs, it seems to depend on the CPAM's approach to the EHIC.  In some regions/departements the hospitals, doctors, pharmacies seem to accept the use of EHIC's for ongoing rather than emergency treatment.  However, in some areas (this being one of them) the EHIC is usually used solely for emergency treatment.

Whatever happens with Mark's Dad, if he wants to access the French system, he'll still have to pay something and then claim it back in the UK if he uses his EHIC - either through a doctor's visit to obtain the ordanance for the morphine patches (very unlikely to be sold over the counter) or through a pharmacist who would sell without prescription.  Though of course, how many times you'd be able to make such a purchase would be restricted as it would/should be an emergency and again, even in France tho the ordnance may be for three months, you only get one month at a time from the pharmacist. 

[cooperlola]

Yes, Tony, this is pretty much what I imagined.  However, in the o/p's case his father seems to be in a real "betwixt and between" situation and it sounds as if most of the time he could/would be prepared to get his prescription filed in the UK.  Therefore, it may indeed be possible for him to do it - perhaps once or twice a year - in France if he was unlucky enough to be too ill on odd occasions while he's over here.  However, my personal belief is that many of the reforms going on were, at least initially, introduced and formulated to root out those who were abusing the system by pretening to live in the UK whilst actually spending more time here and taking advantage of the system here with their EHICs, so the o/p's father may well fall foul of the suspicions about this over here, even if he were a perfectly legitimate case.

[Nickel]

Mark,

The "morphine" patches do not in fact contain morphine but usually either Buprenorphine marketed as Transtec or Fentanyl marketed as Durogesic D Trans( though I am sure there are other names)

They are opiates like morphine but far more potent ( fentanyl 100x). It may well depend on which type your FIL is using and at which strength as they may need replacing from every 72 hours up to weekly. This may dictate how frequently he would need a repeat prescription.

He would really need a GP here who would be  aware of the exact prescription he uses ( they are not necessarily interchangeable) so if for any reason he could not return to UK he was not faced with being without the patches - and being strong narcotics - the associated withdrawal symptoms, as well as the pain. How this would be funded -and they are expensive - well that's another question, not sure the EHICs would cover.

I am afraid it is the very potency of these drugs that makes prescribing them more problematic.

 

[cooperlola]

The EHIC covers more than one thinks, so it may be do-able, but Nickel's info' is very interesting.  I too, from a purely layman's perspective, cannot see this being prescribed without a gp's intervention, but a visit to a general pratitioner should aslo be covered, in emergencies.

(BTW, Nickel - how come my dog is in your avatar?)