Should the UK now bar non-British EU residents from free NHS treatment?

[Rich1972]

Given that any non-British EU resident who has lived in the UK for more than six months can get free treatment on the NHS, is it time that the British government takes a leaf out of the French government's book and withdraws cover for these people (unless they're OAPs or tax-payers)?.

[Russethouse]

How many people do you estimate this woud involve - do we have a large population of non working immigrants from European counties in the UK?

[Rich1972]

[quote user="Russethouse"]How many people do you estimate this woud involve - do we have a large population of non working immigrants from European counties in the UK?[/quote]

I think it's the principle more than the actual number of people involved.

[Russethouse]

So lets waste £XXX getting this passed when we could be spending the money actually on the health system....not worth it IMHO.

[Rich1972]

[quote user="Russethouse"]So lets waste £XXX getting this passed when we could be spending the money actually on the health system....not worth it IMHO.[/quote]

All it would require is a bill through parliament stating that from 'x' date all non-British EU residents not in work would have to get comprehensive private health insurance.

[Russethouse]

Bills in Parliament involve hours of effort - I think there are other issues we could more usefully use resources on.

[Jacqui Too]

Just because one country makes a law doesn't mean it will work for others.

As RH says how many people will this affect? Not sure how many people come to Britain to retire.

I would rather see some of the other injustices addressed first! and that would be way down my list.

[ColinE]

Hi Rich1972

I second that, I have worked for 49 years in the UK born and breed here, I strongly object to people coming into our country, having not paid a penny into the system, getting benifits and free health care.

It should be as we will have to do in France, if we ever get there, unless retired, buy their own health care, the NHS must be spending millions on these people.

Its the same these people going into hospital having babies etc then clearing off without paying, make them pay up front or no treatment.

I had better stop there, other wise I my say something I should not.

This is one of the reason for us to move to France.

 

Colin

[KathyF]

But the British system is completely different from the French and you can't just tinker with one bit of it.  Instead of being an insurance-based system, funded from contributions, whether personal or employer, as in most European countries, the NHS has always been a tax-funded one, basically free at the point of need. As a UK resident and tax payer (and now a pensioner) I would fight tooth and nail to keep it that way.

[Russethouse]

[quote user="ColinE"]

Hi Rich1972

I second that, I have worked for 49 years in the UK born and breed here, I strongly object to people coming into our country, having not paid a penny into the system, getting benifits and free health care.

It should be as we will have to do in France, if we ever get there, unless retired, buy their own health care, the NHS must be spending millions on these people.

Its the same these people going into hospital having babies etc then clearing off without paying, make them pay up front or no treatment.

I had better stop there, other wise I my say something I should not.

This is one of the reason for us to move to France.

 

Colin

[/quote]

But are these people Europeans ? Most of the Europeans I have met have come here to work and pay both Tax and NI (and yes,  please be careful what you say [;-)])

I can't envisage a society where we put the life of a baby in danger, and I'm not sure I'd want to be part of it if we did....

 

[Rich1972]

I can't help but think that this move is specifically designed to target British ex-patriots though. I've just returned from Charente and the impression I got from the British and the local French population was that the influx of British over the last 30-odd years has transformed many small rural economies and bought new life into places that were once stagnant. Surely everyone benefits from that? Oh well.

One other question though: is it true that five years permanent residence in France means that you automatically qualify for a carte vitale, irrespective of whether you're British or French, inactif or actif?

[Russethouse]

Perhaps you should have a look at : http://www.frenchhealthissues.eu/

[Tressy]

[quote user="Rich1972"]Given that any non-British EU resident who has lived in the UK for more than six months can get free treatment on the NHS, is it time that the British government takes a leaf out of the French government's book and withdraws cover for these people (unless they're OAPs or tax-payers)?.[/quote]

[quote user="Rich1972"]...All it would require is a bill through parliament stating that from 'x' date all non-British EU residents not in work would have to get comprehensive private health insurance. [/quote]

Do you think no one has ever proposed doing away with one of the founding principles on which the NHS was established before?  Even tinkering with them has been strongly resisted over the years, so I doubt this would be the walk in the park scenario you envisage. Older people still wail aloud about the introduction of prescription charges about 2 years after the inception of the NHS.

I wonder, under your proposal, how the unemployed would pay for CPHS?. Would  pregnant women, children, the very elderly, the mentally ill, people who become physically disabled be excluded in your brave new world?

What about people who no insurer would take on to start with? You might learn something about the implications of that in the link RH gives above.[;-)]

And then there's the 'tit for tat' element of your proposal. Even if the French had followed through with the proposals they originally made, I wouldn't have advocated the UK doing the same. What a waste of time and money.

[Tressy]

Oooh and while we're at it, why not exclude the children of the unemployed from education.

I can't see either proposal working out too well.

[Rich1972]

Hi Tressy  [:)]

To be honest I was playing devil's advocate a little. I think the NHS provides an excellent service and I'm completely in support of the 'free at the point of use' ideology. I took my dad down to the local NHS walk-in centre on Saturday as he had a bad attack of Shingles. We waited for 15 minutes before he was seen by a nurse, checked by a specialist and then sent off with a prescription. No problems whatsoever. I agree that the French have a different system, but it's a little worrying to move to another EU country where you suddenly have to get insured or risk being made bankrupt or dying. As I said in my first post, I was planning on having a year off to fix my house up before working (I haven't got two-years NI contributions as I've been studying and have only worked for the last 12 months so I'll have to get full cover) but no problems are insurmountable! It would be interesting to know the figures though, to see if the amount of money taken out of the system by the British abroad is far in excess of the amount of money that they pump into the economy.

Rich

 

[Tressy]

[quote user="Rich1972"]

Hi Tressy  [:)]

To be honest I was playing devil's advocate a little...It would be interesting to know the figures though, to see if the amount of money taken out of the system by the British abroad is far in excess of the amount of money that they pump into the economy.[/quote]

Hello you norty person.[:)]

There may be some very clever people who could work out that 'sum', but I doubt it.

Be careful what you wish for.[;-)]

 

[woolybananasbrother]

If the early retired Brits in France had been paying a more realistic figure for their healthcare then the problem might not have arisen.

Meanwhile, as Tressy says, ban 'em all, make 'em pay. Shoot the malingerers. Especially if foreign.[6]

[NormanH]

In fact what should happen is that the whole of Europe adopt a similar system.

The choice is between the British one of using the criterion of residence, paid for in part by tax and partly by Social Security, or that of the rest of Europe, where the payments for health are more clearly earmarked.

If that was brought in in the UK, retired people both in the UK and abroad would continue to pay Social Security contributions on their pensions, as is the case in France.

As it is British people in France have their  (more expensive) French health care paid for by the UK on the E121; not very fair on those who stay in the UK and have to accept the NHS, but have paid the same contributions during their working lives.

[Bugsy]

[quote user="NormanH"]
As it is British people in France have their  (more expensive) French health care paid for by the UK on the E121; not very fair on those who stay in the UK and have to accept the NHS, but have paid the same contributions during their working lives.
[/quote]

Since when has 'fairness' ever been brought into the equation..................[:)]

[Sunday Driver]

[quote user="NormanH"]

As it is British people in France have their  (more expensive) French health care paid for by the UK on the E121; not very fair on those who stay in the UK and have to accept the NHS, but have paid the same contributions during their working lives.

[/quote]

How is it unfair on those who stay in the UK? 

Retired British people in France with an E121 are liable for 30% of their treatment costs like anyone else here.  A UK resident pensioner gets his/her NHS treatment for free.

 

[woolybananasbrother]

Early retired French pensioners continue to pay full social charges I think (am I right here?) ,whereas early retired expat pensioners paid a flat rate of 8%. I understand that the French government wanted them to pay the same as the French but it all fell apart so hence the new dispensations.

[cooperlola]

[quote user="woolybananasbrother"]I understand that the French government wanted them to pay the same as the French but it all fell apart so hence the new dispensations.[/quote]I had never heard about this, wb's b.  Odd because I think a lot of early retired Brits would have been willing to do this - I did not know that that was ever even suggested.  During the shenanigins over the past few months, many said they'd be willing to pay the full 12% which those in work pay.

However, French early retired pensioners, if in CMU B, pay 8% - as do other Europeans in that scheme.  I do not know what early retired French people in work-based schemes pay.  Certainly the employers must continue to cough up now.  Another reason for French companies to keep older people in their workforce, rather than making room for young people who need jobs.

What happened to people like railway employees (who officially retired at 55), I do not know.

[NormanH]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

However, French early retired pensioners, if in CMU B, pay 8% - as do other Europeans in that scheme. 

[/quote]

Why would someone retired from employment be in the CMU?

Wouldn't they still be covered by the Régime Génerale ?

"Vous dépendez du régime de sécurité sociale dont vous dépendiez avant l'attribution de la retraite ou pension. "

http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/.....

[NormanH]

SD "Retired British people in France with an E121 are liable for 30% of

their treatment costs like anyone else here.

  A UK resident pensioner

gets his/her NHS treatment for free."

I am not sure that the 30% covers the difference between the systems. Perhaps the UK should offer a scheme

whereby elderly Brits can get treated as quickly as they are in France just by paying 30% of the cost?

In any case it can be paid by taking a 'Mutuelle' the cost of which is subsidised  for retired Brits by

younger healthy French people who are paying into it without taking much out.

Retired British people in France with an E121 get 100% for serious diseases which count as "affections longue durée" 

and most of these are more common in the Pensioners' age group.

On reflection the French who have paid all their lives into building up a superior system are

subsidising the Brits who haven't contributed to the development of the service, even if they are now contributing now that they need it

[Russethouse]

[quote user="NormanH"]SD "Retired British people in France with an E121 are liable for 30% of their treatment costs like anyone else here.
  A UK resident pensioner gets his/her NHS treatment for free."

I am not sure that the 30% covers the difference between the systems. Perhaps the UK should offer a scheme
whereby elderly Brits can get treated as quickly as they are in France just by paying 30% of the cost?
In any case it can be paid by taking a 'Mutuelle' the cost of which is subsidised  for retired Brits by
younger healthy French people who are paying into it without taking much out.

Retired British people in France with an E121 get 100% for serious diseases which count as "affections longue durée" 
and most of these are more common in the Pensioners' age group.

On reflection the French who have paid all their lives into building up a superior system are
subsidising the Brits who haven't contributed to the development of the service, even if they are now contributing now that they need it


[/quote]

In this system the young will always be paying for the old, thats how it works, also I guess many Brits could resent the French working in the UK  (and there are more French in the UK than there are Brits in France) who get full health cover after they start paying, so a person with less than a years contribution could be getting the same benefit as some one who has paid in for 50 years....

You can see problems with every system if you really want to.