Is this a viable health cover option

[oldgit72]

Thanks for the replies. Nice to hear that at least one other poster has done what  we propose. Our position in the UK is that we are registered at my sons address for health care (doctor/Ehic etc) althlough we do not live with him being mobile (campervan). Its all very complicated and as suggested, it might be better to go down the E106/PHI route although this has it's own problems with pre-existing conditions which both I and my wife have. The day to day comparison of French tax/PHI vs UK tax is not the issue, it is the potential cost of treatment for pre-existing conditions that is the worry when it comes to PHI. BTW, the 72 has nothing to do with living in 72 although it looks nice enough when we drive through on our way to 16. 

[cooperlola]

Funnily enough, oldgit, I have been discussing almost exactly the same sort of proposal with somebody else on this site - even including the mobile home and son's address bits (although in private).  It seems to us at FHI that the regulations as they stand, make it virtually impossible for anybody with a pre-exising condition, to move here, without some sort of very complicated by-pass system.  The flaw in any proposal of this sort is precisely what Sunday Driver points out - that you would have to wait until one or other of you reached UK state retirement age, before you qualified for residency.  Before that, your proposal (if indeed it would not fall foul of the regulations - as discussed above) would mean that you were resident in the UK, and thus you wouldn't get French residency under the five year rule.

If you spent more than 6 months a year in the UK, I think you might just about be able to do this without risk, but anything else would be borderline, imo.  Then you are looking at having to do this for ten years or so.  Probably not what you envisaged at all.

[oldgit72]

Cooperola, I am sure that at some point there will be a test case where someone is deemed to be stateless when it comes to healthcare. It will be interesting to see the UK media reaction if and when someone who has lived in the UK for 50+ years, has paid taxes and NHI contributions and is still a UK taxpayer (as I propose in my scenario) is refused healthcare in the UK on the grounds of residency. Especially when those who come to work in the UK from elsewhere in Europe are entitled to free healthcare after only a few months in the country having lived most of their lives in Poland or Romania. Not that I am volunteering to be that guinea pig.

[cooperlola]

It seems to me (having read the report which I quoted above) that the new regulations and checks are being put in place precisely to prevent other Europeans from using the system for free, unless they are residents as defined in the report - hence my UK passport remark.  But this is a personal impression only.

However, I do know that there was an incident recently where a lady who lived in Spain (where PHI has been the required norm in some parts for some time now) and went home to the  UK for a major op'.  When she was in hospital awaiting treatment, she was talking to one of the nurses about how much she was looking forward to going back to her home in Spain.  She was charged several thousand pounds for the operation!  Obviously, this is not what you are proposing, but it does illustrate the fact that it's not as simple as it once was.

[AnOther]

Just a note that mere fact of being a UK taxpayer endows an individual with no rights whatsoever regarding healthcare.

 

[cooperlola]

Ain't that the truth?  As all those on public sector pensions well know!

[Albert the InfoGipsy]

[quote user="ErnieY"]

Just a note that mere fact of being a UK taxpayer endows an individual with no rights whatsoever regarding healthcare.

[/quote]

True, but not necessarily significant in trial by media.

[BJSLIV]

I am sure that Cooperlola's document goes into it in great detail but in essence I think these two documents give sufficient detail of the dangers implicit in flitting from country to country.

1 What determines the eligibility for free UK hospital treatment?

Being ordinarily resident

http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/Healthcare/Entitlementsandcharges/OverseasVisitors/Browsable/DH_074374

2 What does that mean? Well it all depends , but this government guide gives some of the factors to be taken into account.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/cbtmanual/cbtm10020.htm

I know its a tax document but the factors will be similar if not exactly the same.

Examples of relevant factors:

• Will the person be returning to the United Kingdom? If so, this may indicate that ordinary residence continues during the period(s) abroad (the sooner, more frequent or longer the return visits, the stronger that indication). If the person does not intend to return, this indicates that they have ceased to be ordinarily resident.

• What will the purpose of any return visits be? Visits to see family who have remained at the person’s home in the United Kingdom or holidays spent at such a retained home in the United Kingdom may indicate continued ordinary residence. Visits connected to the absence abroad (for example, being sent to the UK for training by an overseas employer) are less likely to indicate ordinary residence.

• Will the person’s family (spouse or partner and any children) be going abroad as well? If so, this may indicate that the person (and his or her family) is no longer ordinarily resident, particularly if they do not maintain a home in the United Kingdom. If the person’s family remains in the United Kingdom, however, this may indicate that the person continues to be ordinarily resident here.

• Will the person retain a home in the United Kingdom during their period abroad? If so, this may indicate continuing ordinary residence during the period of absence. If not, the person is less likely to remain ordinarily resident.

• If the person retains a home in the United Kingdom, will it be available for their use when they return? If so, this is an indication that ordinary residence may continue. If not - for example, because it is let on a long lease - then it is less likely that the person will remain ordinarily resident.

• Will the person be returning to the United Kingdom at the end of the period abroad? If so, this may indicate that ordinary residence continues. If not, this may indicate that the person ceases to be ordinarily resident, particularly if they do not retain a home in the United Kingdom during their absence.

• How long has the person lived in the United Kingdom? The longer the period, the stronger the indication that the person is ordinarily resident.

Now it strikes me that someone retired, coming and going, living in a motor home would start to raise some questions. It strikes me that the easiest way to increase one's "residence score" would be to maintain a real address, perhaps a flat in the UK.

[dexter]

Perhaps I`m digressing from the OP original question and I dare say that it`s been covered elsewhere in the forum but, when I eventualy move to France my Police pension will be taxed in the UK, given that income tax here covers one`s NHS costs amongst other things, If I`m not entitled to NHS cover then just where will my tax go?

[Boiling a frog]

You name it NHS,Defence,Education,Police, etcetc.

YOUR income tax payment does not pay for YOUR NHS cover. NHS cover is free for residents of the UK. What you are doing is paying into the large pot which is called Govt expenditure.

I suspect that in common with many other Governments in the European Union the UK takes the view that if they are paying you then they are entitled to tax you.  

[oldgit72]

From what you suggest, maybe a small holiday cottage in UK might be the answer. Live in and redecorate etc in winter and rent out as a holiday let in Summer. With the way UK house prices are falling, we might be able to afford one and the French house as well. Also, a bit of insurance if I we live another 20 years and 5 acres becomes too much for us.

 

 

[Boiling a frog]

Going back to the original question.

 

I suspect that the major difficulty will be obtaining health insurance for a 6 month period which will include his preexisting conditions.The EHIC will only cover a percentage of the costs therefore it could turn out rather expensive.

[Poppy]

[quote user="oldgit72"]

From what you suggest, maybe a small holiday cottage in UK might be the answer. Live in and redecorate etc in winter and rent out as a holiday let in Summer. With the way UK house prices are falling, we might be able to afford one and the French house as well. Also, a bit of insurance if I we live another 20 years and 5 acres becomes too much for us.

 

 

[/quote]That's almost what we did, we rented the mobile home out in the summer [:D]

When we actually did what you are proposing we were very healthy by that I mean nothing more serious than flu, measles etc in 50 something years. I don't think we would have relied on an EHIC if we had serious or pre existing health problems.

 

[sunshine 2]

The main problem with the suggestion that you spend almost 6 months in France and then use your holiday home in UK for winter, whilst letting the UK holiday home out in Summer, is the restrictive nature of treatment under EHIC.  Under your EHIC then if either of you gets a v serious illness eg cancer then you would struggle to get more than the initial investigative work and diagnosis done in France.  For example, suppose you detect a lump which needs investigation - you may get some initial analysis done in France if you tell medics you are in the middle of a 5 month 'holiday'.  But suppose it was deemed to be an aggressive cancer which needed treatment by immediate course of radiotherapy/chemo or operation.  That would NOT be available to you in France under EHIC.  It would be expected that you repatriated to the country in which you are resident for such a lengthy treatment plan.  That would throw you into an immediate difficulty/delay as you would have to return to UK and get into NHS system for treatment - OK that might not take long if you remain registered with the GP where your UK holiday home is - but I would be v surprised if there was not some delay while you were re-assessed and treatment plan formulated in UK - plus there might be bookings in your holiday home so you have all attendant problems of finding a new address in middle of holiday season etc. 

Similarly, if you were involved in an accident in France and needed extensive rehab after the initial hospitalisation - you would be asked which NHS area the French hospital was to arrange for repatriation to for the ongoing rehab., ie your UK home address area.

Sounds like a nightmare to me, and although I know someone that does precicely that, they are prepared to return to UK immediately, and have a house permanently available there, if one of them needs investigation for anything that looks as though it might be serious.

[Tony F Dordogne]

Sorry if this appears too simplistic but why not do the right thing rather than trying to find ways round things?  If you live in France, play by the French rules.  If you live in the UK, play by the UK rules, seems easy really rather than trying to find ways round things.

[cooperlola]

Whilst I agree with you 100% Tony, I do see oldgit's problem (as I know you do too).

Wants to live in France - fine, why not?  Is classified as "inactif" and has some years to go before receiving state old aged pension and hence E121.  Therefore, on expiry of E106 must get - and I quote - "full and comprehensive" private health insurance, which conforms to THESE rules.  Under THESE regulations, he must now register at his mairie, and provide proof, not only of income, but also of health cover which conforms to the first set of regs.  BUT, and here's the big rub, oldgit has an ongoing health problem which no insurer will cover, therefore he cannot - if you take this to its logical conclusion - live here once his E106 has run out. Precisely the same problem many of us would have had if concessions had not been granted to anybody already living here. 

There are the "accident de vie" provisions for those who cannot get PHI due to ill health, but they only apply if you did not have the condition/illness when you arrived.  Now, I know I'm banging an old drum here, but the problem still remains.  In theory at least, sick people (and that might just mean you have mild asthma or slightly high blood pressure - anything which would mean an insurer wouldn't touch you) cannot legally live in France before retirement age unless they work or are on disability benefits.  I suspect that it wouldn't be a real issue of legality - in that I doubt if the registration process will involve making sure that your insurance company has not got any "get out" clauses on your policy for specific conditions (those chronic and ongoing illnesses you already have) but you still have the problem of getting treatment, both for everyday things, and for major illnesses which the company deems as arising from them. 

Thus it is no surprise that people are now being forced to think up creative ways of living here which are both within the law and which protect their access to health care.

[Tony F Dordogne]

Sorry if this sounds hard-nosed but perhaps the answer is for oldgit to move to France when he's 63?  Moving here is a lifestyle decision not a matter of needing to move but a matter of wanting something which, if the rules are followed properly - that is, to comply with the spirit of what's been enacted - the French dont want, other countries life choice inactifs and are trying to stop that happening.

Creative ways increasingly seems to mean 'avaoiding doing things correctly' and trying to get round the legal constraints the French are imposing - and after all it's their country, they make the rules.

So perhaps you've answered the question, don't come here until you're 63 and your E106 runs into your E121.

[Boiling a frog]

I wonder what would be said if thousands of EU citizens,having sold up in their own country,moved to the UK with no intention of working,because they had taken early retirement.

On their arrival these thousands were  immediately entitled to free health care for their preexisting conditions,.They wanted supplementary benefit ,and relief from council tax because they said they  did not have enough money , kept their money stashed in a foreign bank account in order to avoid income tax and drove about in their foreign registered cars to avoid paying road tax.

[Tony F Dordogne]

Or even what the reaction would be if there was a similar website - Living Poland/Estonia/Pakistan/Iraq - where people could post messages asking for ways of 'creatively thinking' of ways of living in the UK and avoiding the rules/laws? 

[Russethouse]

 Are we (as a society) no longer used to be told "no, you can't do that"  We are used to being able to do everything we want to, when we want to do it and if their are obstacles in the way, finding a way round it..........[8-)]

[Weegie]

There probably is.[;-)]

That was a response to Tony's post.

[AnOther]

It would be more surprising it there were not [blink]

RH: With the abysmally low standards the current UK government have set I don't think the British population can be blamed for emulating their mendacity and deceitful ways.

 

[powerdesal]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

 Are we (as a society) no longer used to be told "no, you can't do that"  We are used to being able to do everything we want to, when we want to do it and if their are obstacles in the way, finding a way round it..........[8-)]

[/quote]

Why is it wrong to find a way round obstacles as long as the way is legal?

Somewhat analogous to tax surely, tax avoidance is legal, tax evasion is not.

[Russethouse]

There is nothing wrong with it as long as people can accept that 'no really does sometimes mean no'.

For example - access to the NHS in the UK is based on residence, that is our current system and most people don't give it a second thought until a problem arises, then they suddenly don't want to accept it and sight lots of examples which really have little to do with the issue. 

If you are early retired and have an existing health issue the evidence seems to point to the fact that the French authorities are unwilling for you to live there.

I knew a young couple who suffered a lot of heartbreak trying to start a family, she used to say that if they couldn't do that they would just decide to live a different type of life - sometimes I think that a Plan B would be a very much better option than a shaky Plan A, but our culture now is full of, it's not fair, it's my right etc - well sometimes the fact is that no it's not fair, thats life......and no it's not your right.

Rant over....

I'll duck now........

 

[powerdesal]

Oldgit72,

The summary of opinion seems to be:-  Rent a home in UK as your permanent residence, with the usual things such as registered with a local GP, on the electoral role etc. Do not rent it out. Maintain your status as 'Ordinarily Resident'. There seems to be nothing to stop you going off for camping trips within UK, as many people do.

Keep your French place as a maison secondaire, use it for holidays, up to the 183 day cut off.

When you are in receipt of UK state pension (ie at 65) get an E121 and retire to France. As you seem to be already retired, I dont think you will qualify for an E106 once you have been retired for two years.

End of problems, and totally legal in both Countries.- I think ?