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Hypothetical question


andypandy

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None -

provided that the residency as defined under the Double Taxation Treaty between France and the UK remains at the address they have given their doctor - if not, then as suggested - benefit fraud. 

Puts them on the same level as low lifes whi claim dole while working cash in hand. 

Post edited by the moderators in accordance with the forum code of conduct.

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Andyh4

"Puts them on the same level as low lifes whi claim dole while working cash in hand."

Why's that then ?

Worked all my life.

Paid lots in tax.

Would still be paying tax.

Britain is FULL of people living abroad most of the time, getting benefits from the UK, getting health care in the uk, owning businesses in the UK and falsely claiming housing benefit etc etc

 

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[quote user="andypandy"]Britain is FULL of people living abroad most of the time, getting benefits from the UK, getting health care in the uk, owning businesses in the UK and falsely claiming housing benefit etc etc[/quote]

That does not make it right.

You have an answer to your hypothetical question.

As a moderator, I will kindly refer you to the forum code of conduct:

Users must not post messages which incite illegal activity.

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Hmmmm, whilst not agreeing to the principle, I think calling it benefit fraud and or illegal is over egging the pudding somewhat. However I think you should contribute to the system you are currently using/intend to use. I have not been a UK resident for nearly 20 years and the criteria regarding residency are not simple. It's perfectly possible to be resident in two countries at the same (for tax). The french have a 'where ever you are the most' catch all criterion though which is quite clever.

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As Clair says, people do what you suggest, AndyP, but it's still illegal.  However, I can see that the new healthcare rules here will inevitably lead to people trying anything to get around the problem.  But if the illegal activity is discovered then this hypothetical person is in trouble.  As they would be pretending to live in the UK, they would also have to pay tax in the UK (more expensive), have a UK registered and insured car etc etc, thus they would be forced to perpetrate not just one crime but several.   If they have the new microchipped passport then, if the authorities of either country ever get their acts together and figure out that our fictional people actually live in France, they could be prosecuted for a whole host of things, not least driving about with invalid car insurance, and tax evasion.
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Thats right Patf. This 'scam' was actually suggested to me by a chemist over here in the uk and confirmed by a couple of doctors who have many patients mainly living abroad. I'm just looking at ways to be able to afford to live in France. We may move this year, in two years or worst still in five years, depends on all sorts of things but I can't see a situation where I will be able to afford £300 for joint health care with my wife. Maybe we could rent for two years covered by an e106 then rent back in the uk until we qualify for a new 106 ????

Anyway thanks for the comments, the first few just wanted to jump down my throat. 

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[quote user="andypandy"]

Anyway thanks for the comments, the first few just wanted to jump down my throat. 

[/quote]

 

perhaps.......................

.........................or maybe the first 2 are UK tax payers who do not see why they have to fund your health care through taxes, when legally you should be funding your own.

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Andy (h4 that is) - Surely they would still be paying UK tax if allegedly residing there, wouldn't they? EHIC is only for short terrm emergency treatment and as someone else said, longer term problems would result in being treated in the UK anyway.

I am not taking either side on this but I know that many people who move UK-France are just seeing how it goes for a year or two. If that's the case, the situation is far from black and white which, as we know, makes all arguments simple. It's all to easy to judge from the moral high ground if your life is clear cut and sorted and that's a trifle hard on those who life isn't.

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[quote user="andypandy"]Maybe we could rent for two years covered by an e106 then rent back in the uk until we qualify for a new 106 ????[/quote]To qualify for another E106 you would have to pay 2 more full tax years worth of Class 1 NI which basically means working as a PAYE employee, something I suspect may not be in your game plan.

Your best bet may be to start up an auto-entrepreneur business in France through which you could qualify for health cover. Note though that the moment you start to work in France your E106 becomes invalid.

 

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[quote user="andypandy"]

the first few just wanted to jump down my throat. 

[/quote]

Consider this as another jump down your throat.

It's fraud: pure & simple.  Fiddling the system.  Obtaining benefit under false pretences.

Oh, and if you do get found out, I hope that it hurts.

(This'll get mod'd, I know, but who cares?)

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[quote user="andypandy"]

If a couple aged 55 & 56 sell their home in the uk, change their address at the doctors to a relatives address in the uk, buy a house in France(that is a holiday home), have a european health insurance card, what's the problem ?

 

[/quote]

Just to be practical (avoiding moralising)

The card will only cover 70% at maximum of costs.

The other 30% is at your charge

OK if you have a  tooth out for say 80 euros..

But if you develop Cancer ?

the European card won't cover you for the 30 % of the very expensive treatment

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[quote user="NormanH"]But if you develop Cancer ?[/quote]

Cancer is one of the ALD (Affections de longue durée), supported 100% by health insurance.

However, it does not mean that 100% of all the costs are reimbursed, as the cover is limited to 100% of the

rates listed by the French health insurance
.

Excess fees are charged to the patient or his top-up insurance.

Also, cover at 100% is only valid for the care directly related to the cancer and

determined by the doctor's protocol.

Care and treatment having no

relation with cancer or another ALD are reimbursed according to the

usual rates of 70%, with the balance paid for by the patient or his top-up insurance.
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This is not intended to be a law lecture but if AndyPandy just simply looks up mens rea then he has the answer.

If your mind is telling you hi I can get around this system and benefit (however you define benefit) then it is fraud and illegal.

Andy it is simply that. Forget about other issues forget about where you are living you are on the slipperly slope.

I seem to remember another contentious posting by someone in the past and which brought let us say some to the point comments.

I feel sure it was not AndyPandy
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[quote user="andypandy"]

I can't see a situation where I will be able to afford £300 for joint health care with my wife.

[/quote]

Not jumping down your throat [:)], but we have to fund top-up insurance of €1000 per annum from single state pension. OH covered 100% for 2 illnesses under ALD scheme (the 3rd illness only covered to 75%). If you are looking to afford to live in France then you will need to find some way of working here.

PG

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Apart from the moral issues, and how those of us who fully pay our way in both France and Britain view people who think they can always beat the system, we are in danger of getting bogged down in misapprehensions.

The old E111 was for emergency health cover for visitors to other European states. However the EHIC replaced not only the E111 but also the E110, E113, E114, E119 and E128 so its scope is somewhat wider, and it can indeed be used for regular routine treatment of existing or chronic conditions. See http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/Healthcareabroad/Pages/About.aspx 

But if a UK resident uses the EHIC in France, reimbursement is at French rates rather than UK rates (and UK treatment is not necessarily free, as most people have to pay the standard prescription charges).

And although the EHIC would help fund treatment for existing ALD-type conditions like cancer, it is very unlikely this would be at 100%. Full ALD cover in France is not automatic, it has to be agreed by the patient's medecin traitant and primary health assurance provider, so by definition you would need to be fully affiliated to the French system in order to benefit from 100% ALD cover.

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[quote user="Slippery Sam"]Andy (h4 that is) - Surely they would still be paying UK tax if allegedly residing there, wouldn't they? EHIC is only for short terrm emergency treatment and as someone else said, longer term problems would result in being treated in the UK anyway.

I am not taking either side on this but I know that many people who move UK-France are just seeing how it goes for a year or two. If that's the case, the situation is far from black and white which, as we know, makes all arguments simple. It's all to easy to judge from the moral high ground if your life is clear cut and sorted and that's a trifle hard on those who life isn't.
[/quote]

 

So if we take that view I assume we could (repeat could)

1.  Not make a French tax return - on the basis we may not be staying

2.  Not re-register our car - on the basis that we may not be staying

 

or even

drive on the left hand side of the road!  [:)]

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Well I've come to the conclusion Andyh4 and Gardian that you are not being as helpful as you could be. Thats your choice and I respect that and your right to voice your opinions and I will not insult you, that would be childish. Like my subject header said, it is only a hypothetical question. I shall probably rent in France for two years then return to the UK where I shall arrive destitute and obtain social housing in the orkneys, it's lovely up there. There won't be any work there but with honest people like you paying for my upkeep, that won't be a problem. Maybe when I'm settled I'll drop you an email.
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Come on Andyh4 you know thats not what I was suggesting! I (still) think anyone who has moved 100% should adopt all the rules of the new jurisdiction, no ifs or buts.

 Many people, me included, for one reason or another, cannot live here all the time and things are not so clear cut. It's not an excuse to get around the system though. For instance, we have two vehicles, one french reg and one not. Sometimes they end up in the wrong places, maybe for a few months but they will eventually always go back to where they really live. They are both fully legal however and it's wrong to suggest that if my non-french car ends up in France for 6 months 1 day, that I'm trying to get around protocol/be fraudent/do anything illegal. However if my car ended up untaxed etc as so many uk cars seen at french airports are, that is a totally different matter. However, someone could easily try to make it look like the same offence should that be their agenda. Over the past 20 years if I'd kept to the letter of the law regarding vehicles, life would be a constant rigmarole of re-registering vehicles which would obviously be ridiculous. OK its not tax/healthcare I admit but only an example of how silly this can get if you don't live here all the time.

If you do and pay into the system, I can quite understand the previous reactions in this post. However their lives are probably clear cut, mine an op's isn't and nobody should jump to conclusions about intended fraud, which might be far from what is being suggested. Its all too easy to judge....

T'other Andy -stop winding 'em up!

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andypandy  says  that  an  english  chemist  and drs  suggest  that  he  does  this  and  they  have  patients  doing  this  very  thing  ?

 

i  think  that  they  could  get  into quite  a  bit  of  bother  if  found  to  be  knowingly  doing  this. 

 

can  anyone  get  the  a l d  if  they  are  not  in  the  system ?

 

i  do  not  think  what  you  are  planning  is  a  good  idea.  we  all  pay,  paying  does  not  give  us  life  time  rights  if  we  move  on  to  another  country.

 

 

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