What's Included in Habitable Area Measurements?

[Richard]

Hi All,

Well, we're full steam ahead in our property search. We're heading to France over the May bank holiday and have 6 properties to view.

Quick question.... when the measurements for the habitable area of the house is provided, what is included in that measurement?

For example, what rooms are included? Are hallway spaces include? Garage? Bathrooms? En Suites?

Many thanks!

Richard

[Chrissie]

We have had four different estate agents view our property and they have each come up with different habitable area sizes.  But in general it seems to include all reception and bedrooms, but not small halls, corridors, garages, utility areas or bathrooms.  We have a large upper hall separating three areas and most of the estate agents included that.

Good luck with your search.

Chrissie (81)

[nectarine]

I understood it as what could be used as a bedroom or a sitting room. Large mezzanine landings are sometimes included or not, depending on the agent. Good luck with your search ... what area are you looking in?

[NormanH]

I believe that there is a height requirement too, so that for example attic rooms may have only have part of the floor area counted if there are sloping ceilings. However I am not sure of the exact height.

[cooperlola]

Norman, iirc, this has certainly been standardised for the purposes of tax but whether estate agents are obliged to follow that lead I'm not sure.  I'm sure the height's been discussed on here recently.

[NormanH]

I found this

http://www.pap.fr/diagnostic/diagnostic-immobilier/metrage-loi-carrez/metrage-loi-carrez-a1393

La loi Carrez concerne la superficie des planchers des locaux clos et couverts après

déduction des cloisons, des murs, des marches et cage d'escalier, des gaines,

des embrasures de portes et fenêtres.

Sont exclus de la loi Carrez, les surfaces d'une hauteur

inférieure à 1,80m, les loggias, les balcons, les

terrasses ainsi que les annexes, caves, garages et

jardins

[cooperlola]

Oh, well done.[:)]

[Quillan]

Very interesting link.

All my bedrooms have a height of 1.75M, I know this because I had to measure them for curtains and the top of the windows and patio doors are at 1.7M. Does that mean I should claim a tax rebate as they are not classed as habitable?

What about cabins, when we looked at some for the possibility of creating chalets in the garden their ceiling height was less than 1.8M. I wonder if that also means you would not have to pay tax on them?

Could a 'sly' person put in false ceilings to drop the height and save money?

Is there a minimum height for ceilings when building and would this by chance be 1.8M? If so it would be interesting to know the year that figure became law, just for my own peace of mind.

I am not doubting what the link says at all but it does make one wonder. Anything to save money. [;-)]

[pachapapa]

[quote user="Quillan"]

Very interesting link.

All my bedrooms have a height of 1.75M, I know this because I had to measure them for curtains and the top of the windows and patio doors are at 1.7M. Does that mean I should claim a tax rebate as they are not classed as habitable?

What about cabins, when we looked at some for the possibility of creating chalets in the garden their ceiling height was less than 1.8M. I wonder if that also means you would not have to pay tax on them?

Could a 'sly' person put in false ceilings to drop the height and save money?

Is there a minimum height for ceilings when building and would this by chance be 1.8M? If so it would be interesting to know the year that figure became law, just for my own peace of mind.

I am not doubting what the link says at all but it does make one wonder. Anything to save money. [;-)]

[/quote]

The answer is a very definite NO.

In fact, reductio ad absurdum, if you put in an intermediate floor reducing the height to 1.75/2 metres then the taxe foncière applicable to the modified area would double. This, of course takes into consideration that neither a Permis de construire or a Déclaration préalable would apply thus eliminating any relevance of the 1.8 metre rule.

The application by the Hôtel des Impôts of a factor of 60% of the floor area for the calculation of the H1 adjustment to your dwelling subsequent to the completion of works is ONLY applicable to an "aménagement des combles", not relevant in the case of your reductio ad absurdum modification.

[P-D de Rouffignac]

One of the points to note in the helpful link provided by NormanH is that the loi Carrez is applied only to properties bought in co-propriété (co-ownership) which includes apartments (where you own the freehold of your own apartment plus shares in the building's common parts) and properties such as houses or chalet/pavillions that are built within a complex (which similarly may include shared grounds, a pool, tennis courts etc).

The term 'habitable space' (surface habitable) is a bit confusing as it can be taken to mean the loi Carrez measurements (which exclude for example mezzanines and loggias) or the overall space - some property descriptions include both loi Carrez (where applicable) and include the dimensions of areas such as mezzanines, loggias etc which offer extra living space, in the description. For example, if you were looking for a 40m² apartment, you might be happy with a 30m² apartment which had a 10m² mezzanine.

[Quillan]

Oh well PPP it's worth the ask, you never know. Not that I for one would truly consider dropping any ceilings as it's to much work, something I try to avoid. [:D]

[NormanH]

Thanks for that clarification P-D de R

It makes the Loi Carrez more or less inapplicable for most British owners here ..

[Chancer]

I dont believe that your ceilings are at 5 foot 10 inches Quillan, do you only take dwarves, midgets and Chancers as guests? [:-))]

I imagine what you are saying is that the internal finished height of one of the outside walls is 1.8 metres due to the slope of the roof, my loft rooms were at 0.6m, now with boarding out and storage at 1.2m, in that case the habitable area is taken as that which has a ceiling height above 1.8m, so in my case the loft apartments are have a fllor area approx 30m2 each but around 22m2 habitable, my bathrooms are less than 1m2 habitable, definitely made for nains!

[Chancer]

I thought the law Carrez applied to all rentals and sales, perhaps it was its predecessor.

I know there have been cases where the courts have awarded a reduction in rent or a refund of the purchase price where the habitable area has been overstated by the seller and/or agent.

[pachapapa]

[quote user="NormanH"]Thanks for that clarification P-D de R
It makes the Loi Carrez more or less inapplicable for most British owners here ..
[/quote]

Not at all; it is just a convention to protect prospective purchasers of condos.

It would appear that immoblier agents obfuscate and deceive with their "estimates" of area.

So if I had the extremely remote possibility of using an agent I would be sure to include a clause in the contract that all measurements and presentations of area should comply with the provisions of the loi Carrez.

[PaulT]

In our searching we came to the conclusion that there are lies, damn lies and French estate agent descriptions.

So many we came away from saying 'that was nothing like the description'.

One we viewed as having no near neighbours and not overlooked had about 6 near neighbours all overlooking.

Also discovered they could do miracles with a camera.

Paul

[Quillan]

You obviously didn't come across some of these 'freelance' Brits selling houses through French agents on commission only basis. Scum of the earth is being generous based on our experience.

[pachapapa]

[quote user="Chancer"]

I thought the law Carrez applied to all rentals and sales, perhaps it was its predecessor.

I know there have been cases where the courts have awarded a reduction in rent or a refund of the purchase price where the habitable area has been overstated by the seller and/or agent.

[/quote]

Loi Boutin...rental, non furnished.

[Mikep]

I confused myself by taking "SHON" on planning permission docs as relating to "Surface Habitable" - it doesn't, it stands for "Surface Hors Oeuvre Nett", i.e. total area excluding walls. I think it included the garage, which would not be counted as "habitable", but I've never been able to reconcile the various figures.

Incidentally, this had a big effect on my Diagnostiques, as Energy Efficiency is measured per square metre habitable - in my case dividing by 143 rather than 186 pushed me into Band E.

[pachapapa]

[quote user="Mikep"]I confused myself by taking "SHON" on planning permission docs as relating to "Surface Habitable" - it doesn't, it stands for "Surface Hors Oeuvre Nett", i.e. total area excluding walls. I think it included the garage, which would not be counted as "habitable", but I've never been able to reconcile the various figures.
Incidentally, this had a big effect on my Diagnostiques, as Energy Efficiency is measured per square metre habitable - in my case dividing by 143 rather than 186 pushed me into Band E.
[/quote]

A touch of caution on SHON & SHOB, although the change is not retrospective the SHON & SHOB no longer apply to the areas following the changes introduced on the 1st march 2012.

Dealt with in some detail with legislative citations in a recent thread.