What happens after 5 years CONFUSED

[brodie19]

I have been reading and reading and reading various articles on the Internet, but cannot find the amswer to this.

Assuming an ill-health retiree (under UK State Pension age) can access healthcare in France using form E121. What happens after the 5 year residency rule? Does the healthcare (not top-up insurance) continue? or do payments have to be made from income from then on?

[5-element]

As long as you have an E121, your French healthcare is covered. If your Incapacity Benefit continues up to the time when you can start getting your UK state pension, your Incapacity Benefit will then stop, but you will still be covered with the same E121 - issed with the state pension this time. From your point of view, no change. The only change would occur if your Incapacity Benefit was stopped before you have reached pensionable age.

[cooperlola]

I just should point out one thing which 5E hasn't touched upon.  ICB E121s entitle you to 100% cover whereas retirement E121s only give you normal cover (ie around 70% - the rest normally covered by top-ups).  It used to be the case that you had to move to a retirement E121 on reaching UK pensionable age but I believe this may no longer be the case - some posters on here seem to have managed to keep their 100% - but it is something to be aware of.

As 5E says, the five year rule is certainly not really relevevant to those on IB E121s, just so long as their entitlement doesn't change.  Alterations to the way in which IB is granted, plus the necessity to be examined on a regular basis to see if you become fit for work, which result in a loss of IB, are the only circumstances in which it would affect you.

[sueyh]

Hi Cooperlola,

Should we get some sort of letter from our Maire confirming that we arrived in France definitiv on a certain date?

Meant to ask, how are you?  Are you fully recovered from your car accident?

Suey

[cooperlola]

[quote user="sueyh"]Hi Cooperlola,
Should we get some sort of letter from our Maire confirming that we arrived in France definitiv on a certain date?
Meant to ask, how are you?  Are you fully recovered from your car accident?

Suey
[/quote]IMO, your tax returns should suffice.  If you've been filling these in correctly since your arrival, then I can't think of any way in which anybody can argue that you have been living legally in France.  But for belt and braces, then by all means visit your Mairie and ask for a note of confirmation of your arrival - you might even think about preparing one in advance and getting him/her to sign.  Until there is a proper format for the proof of arrival documentation then - in theory at least - no signed document is actually necessary, just the usual kinds of proofs may well suffice (ie phone/electricity bills etc.)

I am OK, thanks, but a long way from recovered.  I have another op' on 30th December, after which, we shall see.

[Suninfrance]

I was interested to read your comment Coops.  OH is on IB with an E121 to which I am attached as a dependent.  We certainly haven't been receiving 100% cover.

Also, the UK are looking at all those receiving IB (in the UK and abroad) and it seems that those receiving it will have to undergo an assessment (in OH's case with his French doctor) to find out whether he is still eligible to receive the IB.  If it is proved he is not, then we lose the E121.  We have, however, been resident in France for 5 years as from 1st July 2009.  What happens then?

[Sunday Driver]

If your IB based E121 is withdrawn, then you will be able to request a transfer to couverture maladie universelle (CMU).  You will then have to pay means tested contributions, currently 8% of your taxable income (RFR) over a 9,020€ threshold.

 

[Suninfrance]

..... and what if the IB is the only income.  We have savings which are declared to the French authorities, but to be honest the interest on that at the moment is virtually non existent.  So if we do not reach the threshold, what happens to our medical cover then?

Sorry - so many questions.

Jan

[NormanH]

I imagine you would be entitled to the CMU de base without having to pay anything.

You may also be entitled to CMU C which provides a Mutelle cover.

[Tony F Dordogne]

[quote user="Suninfrance"]..... and what if the IB is the only income.  We have savings which are declared to the French authorities, but to be honest the interest on that at the moment is virtually non existent.  So if we do not reach the threshold, what happens to our medical cover then?

Jan
[/quote]

Jan, you do not say how long you've been in France.  But - and I'm sure that Coops will be along to correct this - if your income is so low that IB is your only income and you've not been in France for 5 years and are inactive, even tho you have an E121 for your IB the cost of which is covered by the UK government up to the UK's reimbursement limit, you may get caught under the French 'drain on the state' rules because IB income would be below the French b asic income level, especially for two people to be living on.

It depends on whether the UK government picks up the total bill for your care or only part of it and whether the French authorities then think that you're caught up in the recent rule changes.

As for IB being reviewed under the new regulations, there are a couple of wild cards in all this.  In practical terms, the DWP will not look to have people (and this really only effects men) over the age of 60 re-examined because, as with those in the Uk claiming Jobseekers Allowance, they will be deemed to have paid all the NI contributions they need to qualify for their pensions and it's not economically viable for them to do so.

This is especially true if the claimant's GP/specialist in the Uk has filled in what used to be called a Form IB5 which stated that the claimant was unable to work again before reaching retirement age.  Therefore whilst some claimants may have been suffering from an ailment which was not of long duration or potentially life threatening, the GP would assess the claimant as having a treatable condition which meant that they could/would at some stage in the future return to work - leaving aside the argument that GPs were putting people on IB rather than the claimant claiming JA, thereby keeping the unemployed figures down.

But, for a relatively significant number of people, the IB5 meant that in the opinion of the GP and the Board of experts employed by the DHSS/DWP the claimant was unable or unlikely ever to be fit to be employed again.  My understanding from speaking to various DWP people is that their position, if they are over 60, will not be challenged , it's just not worth the DWP's while or budget to try to take them off benefit.

And, it will also open another can of worms for the DWP in that if they remove - say - inactifs with a bad back who receive IB and live in France - they are starting all sorts of argument with Europe over issues like which is the competent state because if you receive IB which is then terminated and you apply for benefit from France who say they are not the competant state, it looks like another wrangle at the ECJ.

I would suggest that if your GP 'signed you off for life' you have little to be concerned about but if you are on open ended IB and did not have the IB5 signed by your GP in the UK, you may well be re-assessed tho the over-60 rule may apply because of your contribution record.

[Suninfrance]

Hi Tony

Thanks for that. 

We have been in France for 5 years as of 1st July 2009, so we would now qualify as "resident".  OH is now 58.  Currently living off what remains of monies from the sale of our house in England which with interest rates being so ridiculously low at the moment is disappearing at a rapid rate.  We are living a pretty simple life here which is our choice, but with the IB being the only income we are, like many others, being stretched.  Anyway, OH had a letter last week saying that he MAY be re-assessed and they would write to him again if that was to be the case.  We don't have a problem with that despite the DWP telling OH that he was on permanent IB 2 years ago.

About 3 years ago (I think) the rules regarding NI contributions were changed to equal amounts for both men and women and I believe the new contributory years is 30 for both.  If this is the case, then we have both made our qualifying contributions, in fact, I have 33 years as I was paying voluntary contributions when I arrived here but was advised to stop when this new rule was passed by government.

All I'm really trying to do is look at our options so that if or when the time comes, we can have measures in place to cover our health.

What is confusing for us is that if OH is on permanent IB, ie, officially retired early on health grounds, then we understand that we pay the normal rate here in France for health and get the percentage back.  However, what the DWP are now implying is that OH is NOT on permanent IB in which case should we not be receiving 100% health cover.

Anyway, the replies I've had so far have been very helpful.  So many thanks.

Jan

[NormanH]

You should investigate the CMU C as I said above

http://www.cmu.fr/site/cmu.php4?Id=17

And have a word with an 'Aide Sociale'

[Tony F Dordogne]

[quote user="Suninfrance"]Hi Tony

What is confusing for us is that if OH is on permanent IB, ie, officially retired early on health grounds, then we understand that we pay the normal rate here in France for health and get the percentage back.  However, what the DWP are now implying is that OH is NOT on permanent IB in which case should we not be receiving 100% health cover.

[/quote]

Hi Jan

I think that it's your husband's age that may be the problem, as he's only 58 he's well below retirement age.  I'm not sure where you got the 'permenant IB' from.  As far as I can see from the campaign on DLA which is linked to IB for many people, there is no such thing unless he was in receipt of the letter/form from the GP stating that he was unfit for work which the DWP/DHSS signed off on.  However, the DWP/IB regulations (like the DLA regulations) make it clear that no matter how long the award is for, you may be reassessed at any time at the DWP's discretion.

Under the new regulations - yet to be fully implemented and as far as I can tell, nothing yet in the guidance about Brits abroad - they're looking at the condition/illness and assessing whether, with the right support, the claimant is able to do SOME work - so that could be sitting in front of a computer rather than being a bricklayer.

The major problem for the Brits in Europe is that their country of domicile is NOT their competant state, nor would you, in your instance, really want it to be.  So, in effect, the new UK regs are fitting in with the new French regs - the French don't want to be supporting people from other European countries and the UK government MAY NOT want to be supporting people living in Europe who are not likely to be economically active in the UK, despite what the EU says.

Your problem could be that the new regs will and in some areas already have superceded the old regs and can over-ride the old regs, therefore cases will be reassessed on an idividual basis. 

I've been medically retired twice, permenantly on both occassions and both long after the GP wrote me off and have gone back to work both times and it's only the last time that I decided the medics may have known what they're talking about.

If I wanted some reassurance, what I would do in your position is write - NOT email or phone - the DWP and ask them what they intend to do with people in Europe under the new regulations, assessments and your husband's case specifically.  get it in writing tho it's likely, at this stage, to be a holding reply. 

The post 60 thing was to accomodate claimant men over the that age for whom the Government didn't have to give NI credits because they had, in the main, already qualified for their pension.