Who's been accepted for health care ?

[AnOther]

I'm being told that France is towing the line now on granting health care to newcomers in line with EU rules but am unconvinced it's happening as regularly or routinely as claimed so my question is this:

Has anybody here been accepted - or rejected - on that basis or know first hand of others experiences ?

No bar talk please !

[NormanH]

What EU rules are those?

As far as I know most of Europe has a health system based on contributions (it is the UK that is the odd man out by being residence-based), so surely it is 'European' that people get health care based on what they have paid in.

Newcomers haven't yet done that.

[Spyder]

After the time you have spent on this forum Norman you must surely know what AnO is talking about, or are you just being a tad pedantic?

[Patf]

My neighbour was accepted, after much form filling and providing documents of proof.

They do have a big income though. You have to pay 8% pa of income above a certain amount, around 10.000€ pa I think.

[NormanH]

Well those who work or run a business have always been accepted as soon as a minimum of côtisations have been paid (for example 60 hours in a month for an employee)

People who became Autoentrepreneurs  became immediately entitled also

People with as S1 such as those receiving an OAP are accepted as soon as they have done the paperwork and are paid for by the UK taxpaye (while French pensioners have to continue to pay for the system they have paid into during their working lives)

The only ones who have had to wait are those who chose to sit on their backsides and do nothing. If they can afford a life of leisure and idleness they can also afford private health insurance...

[idun]

I think AnOther may have been refering to this.

http://www.ameli.fr/assures/votre-caisse-marne/nos-services/ressortissants-europeens-inactifs_marne.php

Strangely I cannot find another thing about it on the EU site or Cleiss, which is saying little as I can be rather useless as finding things. I would rather like to know how this would work as, as you say in France one has to contribute, or jump through other hoops.

[nomoss]

I'm still wondering what line France is towing - is it something to do with rivers and fishing? [:D]

[lindal1000]

It works the same as it always used to work for inactive early retirees. You apply and if accepted then you pay 8% of your income over 10000euros. The year we arrived they withdrew this 'privilege' for EU Migrants, so we were forced to find another way to access healthcare. We set up small businesses and pay our cotisations and that gives us our healthcare plus access to a few other benefits if we needed them. We worked out what we would have had to pay in charges to access CMU had we been allowed to join it, and we are actually considerably better off working for ourselves with a low turnover and paying that way. Maybe the French government realised that they might actually be better off letting people join!

[PaulT]

NH what does 'The only ones who have had to wait are those who chose to sit on their backsides and do nothing. If they can afford a life of leisure and idleness they can also afford private health insurance..' mean?

Yes, I retired at 60 in the UK (now 62, the same age that the French do - presumably OK for the French to sit on their backsides doing nothing but not OK for Britishers to do it until they are 65 - 66 from 2018) and my company pension certainly does not enable me to afford private healthcare - explored that - the reason why I have had to maintain UK residency. Therefore, France only gets part of my money, the majority being spent in the UK.

So here I am sitting on my backside doing nothing.

[idun]

But PaulT, each country has it's own rules for it's own people. And France's aren't the same as the UK's. Incidentally the majority of french pensioners pay towards their health care, the payments never stop, just the way it is. And that is why we had to hand in a french S1 to Newcastle, as we pay in France.

[lindal1000]

Well everyone in France pays Csg and CRDS on all income but that doesn't cover healthcare. Social charges, that contribute to healthcare and other benefits are only levied on earned income, not pensions. Just so I understand this, what do you still pay in France so that you can get healthcare in the UK?

[PaulT]

Idun my main point was of NHs to early retirees 'The only ones who have had to wait are those who chose to sit on their backsides and do nothing' which seems to me to say that no one should retire early, i.e. before State retirement age, which varies from country to country, and that any that do then become couch potatoes.

[idun]

lindal, we pay social security charges every month on all pensions. And

we had to hand in an S1 to Newcastle and were chased for it, only took the french a year to get the form for us.

And thanks, just realised that we still have not received the new CEAM cards that were ordered weeks ago. We had to wait over a year for the first ones of them too. 

[lindal1000]

I know this is drifting off from the original post but there are a couple of things about your situation I don't get.

Access to the NHS is based on residency, not on contributions. Now that may well change but at the moment if you are living in UK permanently you are entitled to use the NHS in the same way as anyone else.

http://www.nhs.uk/chq/pages/1087.aspx?categoryid=68&subcategoryid=162

I understand that all French income generates social charges, but this alone does not guarantee you anything. I pay social charges on all my unearned income but that in itself doesn't give me my healthcare ..

[idun]

No, it isn't just based on residency, we HAVE TO hand in a french S1 to the Newcastle and the french pay the UK for our health care, I have a feeling it is a forfait, as I don't know how the NHS could work out how much we were costing.

We are full UK residents now with a french pension and the following applies to us, and there is a department in Newcastle that deals with S1's from overseas countries.

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/health/when-living-abroad/health-insurance-cover/index_en.htm

If you do not receive a pension or any other income from the country where you live, 2 situations are possible:

• if you receive a pension from another EU country, you belong to that country’s health insurance system
• if you receive a pension from several other EU countries, you belong to the healthcare insurance system of the country where you were insured for the longest period of time.

In either case you need to request a certificate of entitlement to healthcare - the S1 form (formerly known as an E 121) — from the health insurance authority in the country whose healthcare insurance system you belong to.

This document establishes your right to full

healthcare coverage in your country of residence. You must submit it to

the health insurance authority there.In principle, you and your family

are only fully entitled to medical treatment in the country where you

live. However, some countries (see list below) offer pensioners

who live abroad — but belong to their social security system — complete

healthcare coverage on their territory too.

[lindal1000]

It's interesting because if you look at the NHS website it makes no mention of that. Almost better to go back to UK and not tell them that you have a French pension..I assume there is a third scenario, where you live in the Uk but have not paid into a pension from anywhere.

For what it's worth..when I reach the UK state retirement age they will be my responsible state I guess as I haven't made any pension contributions in France (well I have accrued the equivalent of one trimester), but have 30 years in the UK.

[idun]

You'll have to watch out, because if stay in France and IF you have accrued a french pension, be it small, then they will be your competent state and that changes a few things.

 I knew what I was talking about, however, it is nigh on impossible to get this information in the UK now, but only the EU website and ofcourse there is an office that deals with it in Newcastle, I have the number if anyone needs it.

The NHS web site is, as far as this is concerned, useless. As is Citizens Advice, which used to have mention as far as I can remember. And Gov.uk, well, a site designed by, well words fail me..........morons?  and I have been told by people in various government depts not to even look at it, which was/is very very good advice.

[idun]

[quote user="lindal1000"]It's interesting because if you look at the NHS website it makes no mention of that. Almost better to go back to UK and not tell them that you have a French pension..I assume there is a third scenario, where you live in the Uk but have not paid into a pension from anywhere.

For what it's worth..when I reach the UK state retirement age they will be my responsible state I guess as I haven't made any pension contributions in France (well I have accrued the equivalent of one trimester), but have 30 years in the UK.[/quote]

I think that as we knew, 'not telling' would be fraud to be honest, and as we are not in general very lucky people, I'd rather not go down that route, we simply cannot afford it.

[lindal1000]

[quote user="idun"]You'll have to watch out, because if stay in France and IF you have accrued a french pension, be it small, then they will be your competent state and that changes a few things.

.

[/quote]

Does that mean I might be able to 'retire' at 62 rather than 66? It'll be interesting to see how it works out. I'm not planning to go back to UK but I guess we never know so it's good to keep aware of all the options and possibilities. If I've understood your link correctly if France remains my competent state after retirement and I did decide to return to UK I could then get medical treatment in the UK and France. That must be a bit of an advantage..

[idun]

No the rules of each country apply to that country's pension.

ie french retirement at 60, UK pension kicks in at 65 (at the moment and as you know going up all the time, as is the french retirement age).

The only thing is that cotisations paid in other EU countries are taken into account when working out that specific country's pension to make up a 'full' working life, and then payments are made pro rata. Full working lives also vary.

[lindal1000]

Well French pension age is now 62 and my current estimate for Uk pension is 66 and it may well be later than that! It will be interesting to see how it works out. I'd be very surprised if France would want to be my responsible state with only one trimester of contributions..I may get one or two more in by the time I reach 62. I think it'll probably be easier not to retire!

[idun]

It isn't really down to us or the country we live in as to who is the responsible state, it is down to the current rules. IF the french should be yours (sounds like they won't be, but), if you are in receipt of a french pension, then once your UK state pension starts, and you still lived in France, then the UK would not give you an S1 (E121).  These services are in touch with one another.

[lindal1000]

I guess it doesn't really matter who my responsible state is as long as one of them is. I think I read somewhere that you apply for you retirement in the last country that you worked in, so for me that will be France, even though I won't have accrued enough for anything other than a few pennies of pension. My UK pension will top up the pension side, but I guess France get the joy of having to fund my healthcare for the rest of my life.

[idun]

 I agree, you should have to apply for your UK pension, several months before it is due,  via the CRAM, or which so ever french 'state' pension you paid into.  The CRAM will pass your file onto the DWP and then the DWP pay your pension. The health care will depend on IF you have sufficient trimestres to count towards anything at all, which you may not.

There is no doubt in my mind that you will be better off IF the french do not take on your health care.

[Coquelicot]

Idun is completely right.

Living in France and several months before having reached French and UK pension age, you should apply through your caisse (RSI in my case) for your French and UK pensions.  Note that the French caisse will need your UK record of employment

contributions to do their calculation and the DWP will need the French record of trimestres - all this is done via standard EU forms passed between them.   You can also apply for retirement in France before reaching UK retirement age. Strictly speaking the RSI should ask the DWP for your UK employment record but

in our case the RSI asked my OH to get it for them (which he was able to do).

Just a warning...  Timing is important. The potential pitfall, having worked in France,  is the health care situation.

If your French pension figure, once calculated, turns out to be small (currently, less than 156,09 € per year) you will be eligible only for a Versement Forfaitaire Unique (a lump sum of 15 times your annual pension), and no health care, except for one year extra.  After that, I'm not sure of eligibility to CMU in this case and if it is too early you may not yet be entitled to a UK S1.

However, if you would have sufficient trimestres at age 65 to give you more than 156,09€ and avoid the VFU, the caisse will send you an offer : the VFU now (no health care) or the pension at age 65 (with health care).