No pensioner health cover in the event of No deals

[NormanH]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/29/british-pensioners-in-eu-will-lose-nhs-covered-health-care-under-no-deal-brexit

However this may be an alarmist headline since in the article it states

"If you have an S1 certificate, it will be valid until 29 March 2019.

After this date, the certificate may not be valid, depending on

decisions by member states.”

[richard51]

Nomoss might give an answer - he said today that UK managed well for food during the two WWs. And that was without an NHS at the time

I think some convoy people would not be too impressed.

And only recently has the UK paid off its debts to the US!!!!

[Cathar Tours]

These two links may be helpful. March 29 2019 is ls mentioned in these documents.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/uk-nationals-living-in-the-eueea-and-switzerland-healthcare?utm_source=6e9b01be-cdca-4571-a6af-08983303b21e&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=govuk-notifications&utm_content=immediate

https://www.nhs.uk/using-the-nhs/healthcare-abroad/healthcare-when-travelling-abroad/healthcare-in-france/

Both covers holidays and residency. I was under the impression although I may be wrong that it depends on these things being reciprocal and can be agreed between the UK and independent EU states and not the EU as a single entity.

I get the feeling the attitude is more along the lines of "you decided to leave the UK and live in xxxx so tough luck, suck it up and get over it.".

[NormanH]

For France it is always useful to look at French sources

https://www.interieur.gouv.fr/Actualites/Le-ministere-de-l-Interieur-se-prepare-au-Brexit

[nomoss]

[quote user="richard51"]Nomoss might give an answer - he said today that UK managed well for food during the two WWs. And that was without an NHS at the time

I think some convoy people would not be too impressed.

And only recently has the UK paid off its debts to the US!!!![/quote]0

FYI, my father was guarding convoys while he survived, so I don't need smartass quips from people like you.

[Cathar Tours]

So Norman should we assume that the link you gave simply says you need health insurance and has no reference to people who are retired and currently S1 holders that the S1 will cease to exist in France for Brits and they need to get private health insurance? I think your link is extremely vague to be honest and on this issue offers nothing.

If I am mistaken then please give a more defined link to the information so I and others can find it far more easier.

[nomoss]

[quote user="Cathar Tours"]So Norman should we assume that the link you gave simply says you need health insurance and has no reference to people who are retired and currently S1 holders that the S1 will cease to exist in France for Brits and they need to get private health insurance? I think your link is extremely vague to be honest and on this issue offers nothing.

If I am mistaken then please give a more defined link to the information so I and others can find it far more easier.[/quote]

Scroll down to "Health Care" et seq. HERE

[NormanH]

https://solidarites-sante.gouv.fr/ministere/europe-et-international/brexit-vos-questions-nos-reponses/article/brexit-vous-etes-un-particulier

Je bénéficie exclusivement d’une pension (vieillesse,

invalidité, de survivant etc.) britannique et je réside en France. A

partir du 30 mars 2019, votre situation en matière de couverture maladie

change-t-elle et si oui, à quelle conditions ?

Avec accord de retrait

Votre couverture d’assurance maladie et les conditions dans

lesquelles vous êtes assuré ne changent pas. Les règles européennes

actuelles de coordination de sécurité sociale continueront à

s’appliquer pendant la période transitoire (31/12/2020). Dans votre

situation, celles-ci prévoient que si vous êtes pensionné d’un seul Etat

et résidez sur le territoire d’un autre Etat, c’est l’Etat qui verse

votre pension qui prend en charge vos frais de santé.
Vos frais de santé au France sont donc pris en charge financièrement par le Royaume-Uni.
Pour

ce faire, vous devez solliciter le document portable S1 « Inscription

en vue de bénéficier de la couverture d’assurance maladie » (équivalent

du formulaire E 121) auprès de la caisse britannique débitrice de votre

pension de retraite. Ce document permettra votre inscription auprès de

la caisse d’assurance maladie du lieu de votre résidence en France. Vous

continuez à bénéficier des prestations dans les mêmes conditions

qu’actuellement et ce, jusqu’au 31.12.2020.

En l’absence d’accord

Les dispositions de coordination européennes cesseront de

s’appliquer. Le droit national de chacun des États s’appliquera. Le cas

échéant, le gouvernement se prépare à adopter des mesures transitoires

nécessaires.

[richard51]

So Nomoss should have the understanding to know that the UK cannot be self sufficient. What is so smartass about my comment - it is a true comment on the facts that large quantities of goods needed to be brought in from elsewhere and the UK paid heavily for them.

If you are so much for Brexit then I suggest that you return to the UK to "enjoy" the consequences.

I'm sorry for disrupting this thread - but really who knows what will happen in the future for Brits in France. Its all speculation.

[Cathar Tours]

I know that but I believe Norman is implying it may not be correct and only what's on some French government website is the correct version.

So using his link to get to another link I got to this link (thanks for making it simple Norman!)

https://solidarites-sante.gouv.fr/ministere/europe-et-international/brexit-vos-questions-nos-reponses/article/brexit-vous-etes-un-particulier

This is in agreement with the UK side on the S1 cover. If an agreement is made then it is OK up to 2022 after which you need to sort out your cover. With no agreement you lose the S1 cover straight away on March 29 2019. According to French law apparently you must have some form of health insurance. Some are saying visit PUMA if you have lived in France for more than 5 years but I know nothing about this. The very bottom line is even with an agreement your lose the S1, it's just a matter of when, 2019 no agreement or 2022 with an agreement.

The UK NHS claims the S1 system saves them a lot of money so they would be happy to see a reciprocal agreement but then it works both ways in that many EU countries are saying that the S1 is no good to them because it costs them more than they get from the UK.

[Cathar Tours]

Sorry Norman our posts crossed, that's not the link you originally gave, it's the one I had to find. Try harder next time to give more specific links.

Richard51, your not sorry your just looking for a fight and food has nothing to do with the subject in this thread. I for one would not accept your apology. If you have anything further to say on that subject then make it in the correct thread.

[nomoss]

[quote user="richard51"]So Nomoss should have the understanding to know that the UK cannot be self sufficient. What is so smartass about my comment - it is a true comment on the facts that large quantities of goods needed to be brought in from elsewhere and the UK paid heavily for them.

If you are so much for Brexit then I suggest that you return to the UK to "enjoy" the consequences.

I'm sorry for disrupting this thread - but really who knows what will happen in the future for Brits in France. Its all speculation.[/quote]

You're not sorry for anything.

You're just a sorry individual.

[EuroTrash]

CT, I think you may need to remind France about the agreement up to 2022, because they seem to think that the agreement on the table is simply a status quo until the end of any transition period, as provisionally agreed with the EU about a year and a half ago and unchanged since (but subject to Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed), and if there's no transition period then things change on 30 March.

Anyone who legally resides in France is entitled to be covered by PUMA. I don't know why you suggest they have to have been here for 5 years. You can apply once you've been here legally for 3 months.

[Mac]

Since non-EU residents of more than 3 months have the right to join the French health service-I have an American friend who had no problems-I don't see that there is a problem. Under PUMA as well I believe pension income is not taken into account for cotisation- although I'm not certain on that. I'm sure someone else will be up to date on that . So people may find that not a lot changes except of course they will need to get a French EHIC.

[NormanH]

1) What changes in the event of a 'hard' Brexit is that the UK may no longer pay  the costs

2) Only people whose care is paid for by France (called the 'competent state' are entitled to a CEAM (the French version of a EHIC)

I don't believe that includes UK Pensioners

I repeat look at what the French site says. NOT because I think that "France is superior", but

a) because it is specific to the situation in France, whereas the UK site has to deal with all the different situations in the different states

b) because the French site outlines the French position and it is to that that any healthcare providers are more likely to turn:

https://solidarites-sante.gouv.fr/ministere/europe-et-international/brexit-vos-questions-nos-reponses/article/brexit-vous-etes-un-particulier

[Patf]

I can't believe all the 'shock-horror'. This was always a possibility.

None of the guarantees etc are set in stone. You can't trust any of them, british or french. Even pensions aren't sacrosanct - and that's not just for you in France.

Feeling bolshie today.

[richard51]

Cathar Tours - I said sorry - I have little concern whether you accept it or not - I suspect your rejection is for other previous reasons.

However this thread is indeed pure speculation as to what will happen and so is pretty meaningless at the moment.

[Hoddy]

Patf - you're obviously not the only feeling bolshie ...

Please can we stop the personal insults I really do not want to have to start deleting things.

[richard51]

As for the Nomoss comment on this thread about me:

Well quite pathetic - and yes I have reported it.

[Cathar Tours]

This is the thing there is so much conflicting information even on individual country websites. I to was under the impression that the S1 situation came under the leaving del, indeed it is mentioned in it and about it having to be reciprocal. Now France is behaving as if the deal would be between individual member states and the UK and they are not the only country.

The bit about PUMA came from the NHS website to which I gave the link previously. If indeed you can join PUMA at three months can somebody give a link to where it says this on a French website?

[EuroTrash]

CT, as I understand it then if there is a deal between the UK and the EU, all EU countries are part of the same deal. They'll all comply with the committments that the EU agreed to, and some may offer more favourable terms.

If there is no deal between the EU and the UK then it's up to the UK to make agreements with each of the 27 separately.

I think that's the message given out on the French websites; for each issue, they set out the expected "deal" outcome and the expected "no-deal" outcome, which are sometimes the same and sometimes different.

Re PUMA, google will be your friend and you will find the rules on many websites, for instance

https://www.ameli.fr/assure/droits-demarches/principes/protection-universelle-maladie

"Toute personne qui travaille ou réside en France de manière stable et régulière a droit à la prise en charge de ses frais de santé à titre personnel et de manière continue tout au long de sa vie : tel est le principe de la protection universelle maladie."

For an EU citizen, résider en France de mainère stable et régulière normally means, correctly exercising FoM and having been here longer than 3 months (presumably to discount visitors, who can stay here for up to 3 months without becoming resident and therefore are outside the scope of PUMA).

Many official UK websites are woefully ignorant about how things work in France. They'd do better to advise people to find out for themselves than give out misleading information, IMHO. For instance one UK website seems to be encouraging people on S1s to ask to be transferred to direct affiliation to PUMA now - which France won't do, because for as long as they have an S1 they must remain affiliated through that, that is France's and the EU's policy.

[NormanH]

it is important to understand the difference between having a health cover under PUMA, and having it paid for.

PUMA is not the NHS and in France health cover is financed by côtisations so people like Eurotrash who are working and  contributing by paying into the system get their cover in this way

UK pensioners up till now have been paid for by the UK under the S1 scheme.

In the event of a hard Brexit this may no longer be the case.

They will still be in PUMA, but it looks as if they MAY  no longer be paid for by the UK

[EuroTrash]

Yes indeed Norman, good to point that out. Basically it is all about who pays for your healthcare, which is decided by what your status/situation is. For every situation there is one correct route to healthcare - you may be entitled to an S1 from the UK or another country who is responsible for paying for your healthcare, you may pay cotisations at the appropriate rate depending whether you're an employee, a freelance or a self-supporting inactive, you may be covered by France at no cost to yourself if you're on a low income and have permanent resident rights and no other route open to you.

Either way, your healthcare has to be paid for. It annoys me every time I read in the UK press about people losing their right to "free" healthcare, as if healthcare should be as free as the air we breathe and expecting people to pay for it, is outrageous. Healthcare may be provided free at the point of delivery but that doesn't mean it's "free".

[nomoss]

Moved query to a new topic.

[Cathar Tours]

I'm sorry I tried to help my father now with all this and it is far to complicated and confusing. I know a lot of his mates have returned to the UK and really when it comes down to it that's what I think is his best way forward. As the years go by and he gets older he will one day find himself in an oap home where he won't be able to speak the lingo enough. Best to jump than wait to be pushed.

I would have him come live with me but with the rules in Germany as they are that's not an alternative. Still even if he gets what he paid in Euros for the house he will still walk away with considerably more money than he would ever have got in a savings account over the same period (53 cents per pound). Shame really but it is what it is I guess. Bloody Brexit.