Healthcare in the event of a no-deal Brexit

[NormanH]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/23/health-cover-for-retired-britons-in-eu-to-last-six-months-in-no-deal-brexit

[Lehaut]

Ouch!

Even if you are a UK tax payer (Government Pension)?

[nomoss]

Maybe they'll think again if UK pensioners start returning en masse. We are entitled to full NHS cover from the moment we arrive.

I have considered driving back to England in our camper van, telling the authorities there we have no money, nowhere to live in France, having put the house in the kids' names, and claim whatever support and housing we can get.

[Gardian]

It is indeed an ‘Ouch’, Lehaut.

What we don’t yet know is whether:

1. This would only apply in the event of ‘no-deal’ and that if there was an orderly exit, everything would continue as is.

2. Does December 2020 mean after that date you’re completely on your own, or after that date we will continue to fund healthcare according to rules which we haven’t worked out yet (i.e. you had to have taken up residence in an EU state before the originally planned exit date)

3. As Lehaut has said, you could in the event of healthcare no longer being funded have the absurd situation of people being UK taxpayers with no healthcare funding from the UK. However, I’ve often wondered whether ‘public service’ occupational pensions being taxed in the UK would continue after Brexit. That would be the government’s getout.

This is going to generate an enormous row, partly because the government has been seemingly clear in previous statements on the subject and partly because the cost of participating in the French system is going to be significant for many of us.

My guess has always been that there would a set of rules for entitlement (as above), but now I’m not so sure.

[NormanH]

For the moment I find the article confused and confusing and I suspect shoddy journalism here, but it does point to the fact that things are rather less clear than people had been led to believe..

[idun]

The government pensions are taxed at source. Whether you be french living in another country, or british living in another country.

These are international tax agreements which, I do  not believe have anything to do with the EU.

What 'rights' they afford is quite another thing. The only thing that is sure is that they do get deducted at source.

NH, would this affect you, as you have a french pension, don't you, or has this old gal misremembered[Www]

[woolybanana]

You are right ‘oldgal’, because he worked in France for a while after being expelled from UK he does not have all the benefits of UK taxation and relaxation of social charges. Which grates, and I d9nt blame him for feeling hard done by.

[idun]

Well if this old gal has not misremembered, then will be in the french health care system, and this 'should' not affect him. But being a good egg and posting about it anyway.[:D]

[woolybanana]

??

[NormanH]

I am nit typical it is true, but I could act as an example of a 'worst-case' scenario, which is not in fact all that much to worry about.

I have France not the UK as the  state which finances my healthcare.

If after Brexit you are in PUMA as you should already be, and  you become subject to paying  contributions in  the same way as French pensioners do this is how it works at the moment:

Taux de CSG pour les retraités au 1er janvier 2019

Compte tenu de l’annulation de la hausse de CSG pour certains retraités, quatre taux de CSG sont en vigueur en 2019 :

• 0% (retraite non imposable à la CSG) : taux nul
• 3,8% de la retraite brute : taux réduit de CSG
• 6,6% de la retraite brute : taux intermédiaire de CSG (aussi appelé taux médian)
• 8,3% de la retraite brute (ou taux plein de CSG), dont 2,4% imposable à l’impôt sur le revenu

Les taux de CSG prélevés dépendent du revenu fiscal de référence

du foyer fiscal, qui prend en compte l’ensemble des revenus du foyer et

dont le barème varie selon le lieu de résidence. Les seuils pour

bénéficier de l’exonération de CSG (retraité entièrement non imposable à

la CSG)

[pomme]

This is a simulator which seems to include the most recent changes to the bands and rates

https://www.previssima.fr/simulateur/estimation-de-la-csg-des-retraites-en-2019.html

Using your total income will probably give you a worst case/overestimate.

I've not checked how government employee pensions are to be included

[NormanH]

Don't forget that there are a series of bands (like tax bands) which mean that the first 11128€ (for a single person) are at 0% then you go up though the bands as with income tax

You can see them here:

https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F2971

(pensions de retraite)

[idun]

I have just been calculating how much CSG etc we would have to pay, as well as impots if we moved back to France, AND ofcourse top up health insurance and I reckon we would be quite a lot worse off.

However, that depends on what will happen in the future, and if the french start getting funny about paying the pensions to us..........?? Because without them, we really would be a LOT worse off!

[NormanH]

That is possibly because retired people in the UK don't pay NI contributions whereas in France there are the payments I mention above.

[idun]

I usually use the service public web site as my first port of call, but didn't this time, thinking that CARSAT or some other site would help, didn't.

I even tried a simulation and it came out as I had thought, but if there are tranches which was not clear on the sites I looked at, then the simulation was wrong.

So not so bad, end up with all these 'taxes', impots and these, what I still consider stealth taxes, that it would be about the  same as UK income tax in total or there abouts and that is fine. However, the thing, the big big difference is top up insurance, and that would be costly judging by what friends have told me. And I would want good cover for that, as I know how bills can mount up, even when we were young they could. So now[:-))] being old folk, could be even worse.

[Cathar Tours]

Brits in the EU who are S1 holders should have received a letter or will be shortly from the NHS Business Services Authority.

As of October 31st 2019 the S1 and EHIC cease to apply. Those in treatment at that time will have their treatment paid for six months after Oct 31st. One would assume that as many countries have said they will treat expats the same as their expats are treated in the UK people who have S1's in the UK because they have lived and worked in France (or another EU country) will find theirs no longer work.

There is a website that deals with country by country and it does differ, for instance you don't have to change your driving licence in France but we do in Germany.

There is a website www.gov.uk/uk-nationals-living-eu

Another little ditty for those of you that that draw a state pension from the UK, after three years there will be no incremental updates (after 2022-23).

This letter is dated Sept 23. What is alarming is the tone of the letter. It seems the UK is leaving on the 31st Oct with no deal is what it is effectively saying. It is not a letter that says "in the event of a no deal Brexit" it is a letter that says on "31st October the UK is leaving".

[Gardian]

CT .........

Mrs G and I received our letters today and I have to say that, whilst such a communication is long overdue, I feel really quite reassured by the contents.

The section covering the S1 scheme is IMO the most crucial. The wording is as follows:

"The UK's participation in the S1 scheme will continue until at least 31 October 2019. The UK would like to continue this arrangement after leaving the EU. The UK government has offered to continue paying France for your healthcare in the event of no deal, just as it does now. However this depends on the UK making an arrangement with France or with the EU".

Now, can anybody realistically envisage France not wanting to continue with the present arrangement? The alternative is 300k (or whatever the number is) expat Brits applying to join the French system almost overnight. What is more, the revenue would be a fraction of the costs involved. We are probably at the extreme, but the monthly cost of our medicines is 10x what I have estimated that our contributions would be if we were in the French system. For many, it would be at least 2x or 3x.

With regard to Pensions, the letter does indeed speak of a 3 year period of automatic upgrades. However, the letter also says:

"The UK Government plans to negotiate an agreement with the EU to ensure your State Pension will carry on being uprated in the longer term".

Not a guarantee I agree, but a statement of intent which is unequivocal. I'm not sure why the EU has to agree something like that - what the UK chooses to pay its pensioners is nothing to do with anybody else, but there you are.

So, I'm a lot happier than I was a few days ago. Norman was right - the Guardian article was shoddy journalism and very alarmist.

[Cathar Tours]

If I were you I would visit the website given which in turn will take you to the website for the country in which you reside. Like I have heard before it's how the French intend to deal with it that will count for you guys. Keep in mind that contrary to what that liar Johnson has said there are no meaningful negotiations taking place (only in his mind).

The amount of money the NHS gives the Germans to look after pensioners with S1's is just under 3k per year where as the NHS own figures say you need 8K for over 65's. The Germans have no intention of subsidising the NHS indirectly with regards to OAP's. I suspect the UK gives France the same per head. In the case of Germany it will save a whole lot of money and in the case of expats returning home for healthcare it will cost the UK billions. So it is vey much in the UK's interest to get a deal with France, Germany etc. but not in these countries interests to carry on as they do now because it is costing them money.

[mint]

[quote user="Gardian"]With regard to Pensions, the letter does indeed speak of a 3 year period of automatic upgrades. However, the letter also says:

"The UK Government plans to negotiate an agreement with the EU to ensure your State Pension will carry on being uprated in the longer term".

Not a guarantee I agree, but a statement of intent which is unequivocal. I'm not sure why the EU has to agree something like that - what the UK chooses to pay its pensioners is nothing to do with anybody else, but there you are. [/quote]

Absolutely agree, nowt to do with anybody other than the UK govt.  I remember Norman repeating this point at least a couple of times during the May years.

Just fudge from the present government, but not unexpected as this seems to be its modus operandi.  I happen to see a few minutes of Gove answering questions in parliament today and he gave out enough fudge to render the opposition silent through having all their teeth stuck together with fudge.

What really annoys me is that nobody seems to be pointing out that Gove used the word "mitigating" dozens of times and that mitigating can only mean damage limitation.  So why don't they pin him down on the DAMAGE that will be inevitable with no deal?[6]

[Gardian]

CT .........

I believe that the system with France used to be that of a lump sum per S1 holder, but that the French reckoned that they were getting a raw deal and accordingly went for invoicing the UK with the actual costs.

More than happy to stand corrected on this though.

[NormanH]

Which I believe (contra-intuitively) makes it a saving to the UK, since GPs in France do not get a guaranteed payment each  year per patient on their list as happens in the UK.

They get their 25euros if and when they see a patient but not otherwise.

I have often pointed out that this accounts for their willingness to see you [:)]

I must try to find some reliable statistics on this, but I have a strong feeling that I am correct here.

[nomoss]

One of us reeived the infamous letter today.

I regard it as a meaningless attempt by some jobsworths to justify their existence, in that no-one will know what the situation is until 31/11 or even later, and cannot therefore plane anything at all.

[Judith-aka-Judith]

No letters received so far here.  I understand that there is much disagreement in the lobby groups about this .. we shall see ... maybe all water under the bridge soon.

[Cathar Tours]

I wonder if as reported in newspapers around the EU it is anything to do with the 82,000 Germans and 300,000 French expats living in the UK who have been unable to register because the computer is broken or the system is overwhelmed and a few other excuses from the UK have also been sent letters telling them they will effectively become illegal residents as of Oct 31st.

I wonder if any of this is to do with Johnson trying to get the EU into signing his deal with no backstop? Seeing as this is all a very recent action and letters going out the day before the ruling on him being a cheat and a liar and the fact Cox never even bothered to turn up to hear the verdict I somehow got the feeling this was well timed and well planned.

Now I have to decide on Oct 31st do I keep my new German citizenship or my old UK one.

[idun]

In some ways that was what was bothering me about the french pension, that there would be no upgrades in the future, BUT frankly it didn't go up for several years, at all, for anyone, then it went up  for those who were receiving the most, but not for us. And it has gone up a few euros a month over the last couple of years, next to nothing to be honest.

What worries me, rather than bothering me, is them simply not paying out any more, to be seen. And if they were going to do that we would have to move back to France.