Orange

[Just Katie]

Hi Everyone

My 18 year old son went into the Orange shop in January and he took out a contract giving free calls/texts evening and weekends.  Also unlimited use of internet 24/7 for 90 euros per month.  However, end of January he had 350 euros taken out of his account.  He tried to sort this out but was given the run around between the shop where he purchased the contract and customer services.  He had no answer, then the next month another 350 was taken, then the same in March.

I am now running around with him to get this sorted and have just been told that the problem lies with the unlimited internet use apparently when he uses facebook, it is considered downloading and he is charged.  This is the first we know of this and there is nothing stating this on the contract.

I would consider an 18 year old foreign boy to be in the "vunerable customer" categorie and that he has been ripped off due to his naivity and also because of his lack of French.

Are there any similar experiences out there?  If so what can be done? 

[Slippery Sam]

Downloading? Isn't that whats the internet's for? What did the contract say? €350 is a huge sum whatever he's doing.

[Mr Coeur de Lion]

What a bizarre statement for them to make. Whatever web site you go on, it's downloading. Stupid idiots.

I've been stung on my pay as you go Orange plan too. €7 for a couple of mins internet access. Someone, somewhere is making a lot of money for doing bugger all!

[BJSLIV]

Not sure which tarrif he signed up to but it could be

Origami star

Which include internet use  as per.......

- Internet et TV en illlimité 24h/24 et 7j/7

Navigation illimitée sur le portail Orange World, Gallery et internet. Consultation illimitée sur le portail Orange World de plus de 20 chaines de TV et de toutes les vidéos proposées. Liste des chaines TV susceptible d'évolution Sont facturés en dehors du forfait, les usages mail (smtp,pop, imap), les matchs en direct, les usages modem, les contenus et services payants. Les services de Voix sur IP, peer to peer et Newsgroups sont interdits. Afin de maintenir une qualité de service optimale sur son réseau pour l’ensemble de ses clients, Orange pourra limiter le débit au delà d’un usage de 500Mo/mois jusqu’à la date de facturation.

Looks to be a pretty limited idea of illimite

 

[TWINKLE]

This happened to me babe!

With Bouygues - I asked for a fixed account (compte bloqué) I bought my phone and went off on my merry way. 

Got home and realised the  ***** had not enclosed the instructions for my new phone.  I tried to figure it out alone which resulted in 150 euros while I innocently 'surfed' the internet which I had originally asked not be included in my package deal.  It happens to everyone - it's a rip off and they make mega bucks off daft pigeons like us.

I called Bouygues  and cancelled the internet after 150 euros but whizzed by the shop where I had purchased the  phone - I threw it at the shop assistant and demanded that she call her manager to explain why I had ended up with a phone that should have cost me 25 euros but instead of 150. He wasn't around but she admitted it was a rip off and yes I made her cry[:)]

[Just Katie]

Thanks all.  I have told him NOT to pay this and will take it to the top.  He has overpaid enough and there is nothing written in the contract about downloading.  How can they get away with this.  If this was in UK heads would be rolling. 

Anyway, I am going to ring customer services tonight.

Can anyone tell me the complaints procedures in France and any scary words such as ombudsman/which etc?

[Martin963]

I think it's partly an "age-thing" and partly a deilberate rip-off by the operators,  and the two are linked because most of their customers are too rich or too idle to fight them  (unlike you,  and good for you).

I have ALWAYS been incredibly suspicious of mobile phones (and more importantly their outrageous running costs),  right from when they started arriving in the mid 80's.   The sort of people who bought them back then (I remember thinking) looked just the sort of people who didn't "need" them.  A gross generalisation,  but never the less based on truth.

I held out right until 1999 but when I was travelling on my own in the car in France I realised that if I broke down it would make life easier.    I chose a very basic British tariff,  with nothing included,  and was able to move to PAYG after a couple of years,  and on much the same basis my phone bill is still only 30 p per month mostly.

If I want to chat on the phone I do it at home where it's part of the package.   If I want to surf I do it at home,  where it's part of the ADSL package and therefore costs me no more than the monthly charge.   I certainly wouldn't dream of looking at Facebook.  

Which just shows how "generational" it is.   I'm old fashioned because I was 50 last month.   But I'm also cheap to run,  and not subject to peer pressure.

The charges you mention are outrageous,   but I'm also pretty amazed that €90 per month when one is 18 considered "acceptable".   It seems a huge amount of money to me jsut for a phone.    No wonder the British economy was booming before the bust if that's the sort of money people pay for a mobile phone.

When I was that age I had a girl-friend in France,  I would ask my father's permission before phoning her,  and I would pay him the 25 p per minute it cost to call her,  infrequently,  and for no more than 5 minutes.   Cash,  straight after the call,   timed with a stop watch.   We wrote to each other every other day,  pages and pages,  far more romantic,  and far more economically appropriate.

You see,  like I said,  I'm very old fashioned.   This isn't supposed to be a rant against anyone personally,   but just an expression of amazement at what goes on nowadays amongst the "young".

[Slippery Sam]

I could have written that last post (apart from having a girlfriend in France unfortunately) and agree with it 101%

It amazes me when people are chatting away on their mobile at huge cost whereas if they wait until they get home its virtually free. Internet use on a phone is worse....much worse

Just a thought JK, I should complain about this in writing, don't phone, with a lettre recommandée avec each time. They will soon realise you mean business. One thing Orange will hate is publicitity about this rip off and if all else fails I should make it your mission to tell as many people as possible using any means available.

[Martin963]

I'm grateful for your reply Slippery Sam because I hesitated a while before submitting what I wrote,  as the LAST THING I want to do is either to make things worse or to appear to be critical.  That was absolutely not my intention - as you realised.

What Orange are doing is a complete SCANDAL,  not worthy of a French subsiduary,  and I hope Just Katie gets redress.   As you say though,  it will need a lot of work and perseverance,  and Orange's attitude thus far demonstrates that they *are* getting away with it.

It stinks,  it really does.

[Slippery Sam]

Quite. I have a 19 year old who uses all this technology without a thought so I am very sympathetic. Whilst preferring the quiet life with no aggravation, I should go a long long way to making Orange realise that this is complete exploitation although it is acknowleged nobody makes anyone use their service. They will fight back initially but when it becomes apparent that large sections of the french population who might use this service know what they are up to, I almost guarantee they will eventually back down in some way.

One good thing about the internet age is that you can make huge numbers of people aware of such scams quickly and easily. Just a word of warning though (and I'm sure you wouldn't JK) don't loose your temper in this fight and be completely accurate in everything you say. I live on a little island, not part of the UK, some of the time. Up to recently they had their own telephone company who did what they wanted, charged what they wanted (with secret accounts) and generally stuck two fingers up to anyone who made a fuss about being ripped off. I took them on some time ago, and it did get quite nasty, but when the penny dropped that I wasn't going away and might go public, they backed down. I did not enjoy the experience but would do it again tomorrow if I was being ripped off like Orange.

[BJSLIV]

Which of Orange's many tariffs is implicated in this matter?

The specific tariff that I quoted earlier does make it clear that the unlimited Internet access excludes various usages that many people would regard as mainstream. I assume that they only expect on phone usage such as finding the directions to the nearest Quick, rather than really intensive use. They do specifically exclude use in modem mode, which rules out use alongside a laptop.

 

 

 

 

[Just Katie]

Martin and Slippery Sam, I agree wholly with your posts.  My son works and does not earn a huge amount of money but hi tech accessories and big name jeans are more important to him than the air that he breathes.  Maybe it is to do with the mating game whatever that is.

Anyway thank you for your helpful posts.

BJSLIV thank you for your post and I apologise for overlooking it earlier.  Maybe I have become Parisian [;-)].  The contract is Noel Origami.  I have looked on the contract and in my limited French cannot find anything other than "Internet et mails illimites 24/7".

Also, the phone was quickly sold to him in English.....funny how nobody (managers, sales staff or customer service staff) manages to speak it when there is a problem.

My young and "foreign" son was obviously easy pickings for sales staff and boy am I going to let everyone know about it if he is not reimbursed. [:@]

 

[Just Katie]

BJSLIV

I have looked at your previous post and cannot find anything of the red text you have pasted.  What I have is a one sided piece of paper with the date, signature, name etc.  However in the small print in the signature box they talk about article 8 of the general conditions.  These were not given to my son either.

I understand that in contract law "ignorance is no defence" but I also understand (and although this applies to UK) that vunerable clients needs some protection from these scams.

I am now wondering if I have a leg to stand on but I am still going for it.  They can call in the bailiffs, the boy has no assests to seize and does not intend to stay in France much longer as his feet are getting a bit itchy.  So they can have a bit of free publicity on this one.

[Martin963]

You go for it Katie.

I'm surprised Clair hasn't been along,  but I'm sure there's something she's mentioned in the past called the "thingy pour la repression des fraudes" which -  if all else fails - helps out in this sort of instance.

Laters - I think it's this

http://www.dgccrf.bercy.gouv.fr/anglais.htm  (I've put the English link as you say your French is a bit basic).

Otherwise

http://www.dgccrf.bercy.gouv.fr/

[Just Katie]

Thank you Martin,

I have looked on the sales terms and conditions of the Orange website for the UK states that customers will not be abused if their first language is not English.  Surely this must also exist in France.  I feel my son has been taken advantage of here especially where he has not been given the whole contract by the sales person.

I have always used Orange and have been more that happy with their service.  Also, I understand that as with all companies some staff just dont come up to expectations.