Vide Cache

[werty]

Has anyone else had problems when selling a French property with a Vide Cache clause?

[NormanH]

Vice caché

I think you mean.

Basically it  is a problem that you knew about but didn't tell the buyer (and it wasn't obvious to the casual eye)

The buyer has to prove it.

I had a chap try to get me to pay for some bad plumbing work which was behind a wall that he broke into to install a shower.

The two points I argued were  that

1) I couldn't have seen it either

2) It worked perfectly well for the bath that was there. It only became a problem when he changed things.

I didn't pay, and he has since resold so the matter is resolved.

[Chancer]

Dave 21478 once reported falling through the laminate floor in his bedroom into a well or something, there were some great photos, that really was a vide caché and a vice caché.

[AnOther]

I'm not sure what you mean by a 'clause' (vide or vice !) as it is a fact of law not a clause to be inserted or omitted from a sale contract.

Can you explain exactly what the problem is ?

[dave21478]

[quote user="Chancer"]Dave 21478 once reported falling through the laminate floor in his bedroom into a well or something, there were some great photos, that really was a vide caché and a vice caché.[/quote] Yarp. http://services.completefrance.com/forums/completefrance/cs/forums/1867343/ShowPost.aspx

[dave21478]

^^^

You will need to copy and paste that link. I see nobody is bothering to sort out the problems the forum software has?

[Quillan]

The forum is guaranteed IE8 and 9 compatible. That's the software Archat bought and that is beyond our control. Other browsers will work if properly IE compatible. We do try and clean things up if we have time or we spot it but it's not our job really. We do it as a favour because it makes the forum look messy if we don't but then then if we didn't do it nobody else would. We moderators are victims of our own success. [;-)]

[werty]

Seller Beware.

On the day of the signing the buyer confronted me with the request that I sign a Vide Cache agreement for 20 years & if I died my inheritors would be responsible !

I refused. My agent & my notaire were apparently stunned by this & said they had never hears of this before. In order to avoid the annulment of the sale, which I desired, they advised me to agree to a clause of 12 months only, to show good faith.

As they pointed out the Diagnostic Expert had pronounced everything in good order.

Much against my instincts I finally agreed. The sale went through.

11 months after, when the buyer was involved into many projects, he had reason to explore the attic area. In order to do this he had to make an opening into this completely sealed area. He discovered that a couple of beams had been attacked by Capricorns. Not termites. As the beams were of oak the capricorns had

departed. The roof was pronounced good for at least a further 20 years.

The buyer then commenced proceedings under the Vide Cache clause. Still ongoing 2 years later & is claiming 100,000 euros from the expert & myself

[mint]

I am stunned by your account!  What a horrible thing ......

As I am planning on selling a property soon, I am more than interested and am now suitably warned.

Do come back and tell us if there are further developments.

Meanwhile, Good Luck!  I think you'll need it.

[NormanH]

You might be able to claim against the professional insurance of the expert, but they usually write in a clause that says they only guarantee that they have found things in accessible areas, which it sounds as if yours wasn't.

It sounds as if you signed a Garantie des vices cachés  on top of  your normal responsibility which applies to all sales. It is almost suspicious that he should have demanded this, since usually it is accepted that there is sufficient protection in the Code Civile

There are a number of things taken into account when looking at this as you will see from the link above

He has to prove that there is a vice

That it existed at the time of the sale, and that you should have known about it

That it is sufficiently serious to prevent him using the property

That it might have stopped the sale if he had known...

At the worst I think you might be asked to pay towards the costs of repair

 

[AnOther]

[quote user="werty"]he had reason to explore the attic area. In order to do this he had to make an opening into this completely sealed area.[/quote]Surely that fact alone is a defence against a claim and an expert can only report on what he can see. Was it just a normal pre sale diagnostic or a full survey and has the buyer actually taken this to court or is he just threatening ?

Also a claim can only be for a sum required to put things right so €100,000 seems preposterous !

[NormanH]

Another thought. If you look at my first post you will see that the problem in my case was only discovered when the buyer opened up a wall that had been there for a long time and which I couldn't have been aware of problems behind.

[Chancer]

[quote user="werty"] he had reason to explore the attic area. In order to do this he had to make an opening into this completely sealed area. [/quote]

If that aint un vide caché then I dont know what is [:-))]

Joking aside was the attic always sealed off during your tenure?

[PaulT]

Sounds like a nice little try on

[FPN Ben]

werty - how terrible. I really hope that you get this resolved and what a word of warning that is for the rest of us.

Anyone interested in this subject should look out for our article on vices cachés in the next issue of French Property News (February issue, out 23rd January)

[EuroTrash]

I think Chancer's comment might in fact be very central to the issue. If the area was sealed off from before you bought the house until you sold it, you can't reasonably be accused of having known about the problem.

[YCCMB]

I may be wrong, or my specialist subject is the bleedin' obvious, but cache or not, I thought that, even if you have the necessary treatments carried out for capricornes etc. which I thought were obligatory prior to sale, they're still only valid for about 3 months. They could have been killed off and eaten their way back in at any time since you sold the house, I just can't fathom how you can be held responsible for their dietary habits over dthe past 11 months, when, even if you'd known about them and treated it, the guarantee for the work would have long ago expired.

[werty]

Yes. The attic was sealed off when I bought the property 20 years before the sale. I had no reason to access that space during that time.

[woolybanana]

Not sure this is a true vice caché as it has to be intentional on your part, or so I understood. Check with the notaire and be prepared to lawyer up, perhaps, as the buyer's claim is a large one.

He may be trying it on with Johnny Foreigner, hoping to take advantage of your ignorance of the system.

[BJSLIV]

I think you will find that you are responsible even if you are not aware of the problem, unless it's something that should have easily been spotted by the purchaser , if he had bothered to look.

That's why the vendor can include a clause in the sale contract denying responsibility for any VC!

See

http://www.vices-caches.com/vendeur-comment-vous-proteger.html

[AnOther]

[quote user="BJSLIV"]That's why the vendor can include a clause in the sale contract denying responsibility for any VC![/quote]You might get away with that in certain cases, when selling a property for restoration or an old car which both parties accept are likely to have issues with for instance, but in the main I doubt you'd get the average buyer to agree to such a clause it as it immediately raises suspicions.

What would you think, would you agree to it ?

TBH the whole idea of VC, particularly for property where a whole host of serious defects can lurk totally completely unseen, doesn't sit well with me and seems to be an accepted but very poor substitute for a proper pre purchase survey.

Caveat emptor is a far better policy.