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Dodgy telephone line not fixed by FT


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For several months we have had crackling noises on our telephone line and frequent internet drop-outs. Having lifted the two wires at the point of entry into the house and connecting another phone there the crackling continued thus proving that the problem did not lie in the house or other equipment. Request to fix it made to FT who went through the usual speech about trying another phone and disconnecting stuff and warning that if the fault was our stuff there would be a hefty charge for an engineer to turn out. The operator did some test and said the line was OK but the problem continued which she could hear.

Nothing happened for several days so I complained again and this time engineers appeared a few days later. They said the equivalent of "Nothing wrong with the line Guv" which was right at the time as it had been dry and hot for those few days and I have noticed that the fault is there or worse just after we have had rain and better or not there after a few dry days. I told them this and they nodded and said well they looked at junction boxes and found nothing wrong and then pushed off saying let us know if the problem comes back which it has. So what I would be pleased to know if there is any sort of line noise test like one that is available in the UK that I can do by dialling some number or other?  Degroup test gave these results:

 longueur de ligne : 2610 mètres
affaiblissement théorique : 39.15 dB
état de la ligne : ACTIVE

which ain't much help. Internet speed tests are pretty rough, these are typical even when the line does not crackle:


DOWNLOAD
0.49 Mbps
UPLOAD
0.13 Mbps

Detailed Results

Date15/07/10 13:26:52
Download speed498.88 Kbps (0.49 Mbps)
Upload speed136.80 Kbps (0.13 Mbps)
So any suggestions folks before I ring FT again?..............JR

 

 

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There is John, they did it on our line (after pestering them a bit [:)])

Found the fault about 400 metres from our house and replaced the whole line from the junction box to our house.

They cut open the wire to show me and it was all black and very corroded.

Been perfect since (fingers crossed)

.

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Right well the bit of line between the house and the pole in the road, about 22 metres, was replaced a couple of years ago when someone drove a dumper truck through it with the container elevated so I suspect it must be the line between our pole and the exchange somewhere in the village. A lot of the telephone wires around here have fallen off their poles, thick multiwire cables, and droop somewhat so maintenance ain't what it should be. I think I will have a chat with our neighbour and see if their line crackles as well.............JR
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I had a similar problem a couple of years ago which only really manifested itself fairly briefly after rain so had cleared by the time FT got round to checking but after about the 3rd time of reporting via the 1013.fr website they acknowledged a fault and found and fixed it promptly.

By the way your download speed is very poor considering your line stats. At 2600m and 39db attenuation I'd expect to be getting around 4 or 5mb

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Thanks for the link to the 1013.fr site, I will use that instead of ringing them. You are right about the speed, it is dreadful. Takes ages to download TV progs of any length using Mega Manager (63KB/sec max) and worse with uTorrent. Maybe I should have a moan at AOL as well!.....................JR
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[quote user="AnOther"]I had a similar problem a couple of years ago which only really manifested itself fairly briefly after rain so had cleared by the time FT got round to checking but after about the 3rd time of reporting via the 1013.fr website they acknowledged a fault and found and fixed it promptly.

By the way your download speed is very poor considering your line stats. At 2600m and 39db attenuation I'd expect to be getting around 4 or 5mb

[/quote]

I think you're a bit optomistic, AnOther, my stats are:

longueur de ligne : 5620 mètres
affaiblissement théorique : 57.886 dB

and I get 602 max download, so - yes - the OP should be getting better than I have, but 4 or 5mb? shume mishtake, shurely?

p

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No, not at all.

Admittedly calculating adaptive ADSL which is not common in France according to this calculator for that line length and attenuation 6mb+ is theoretically possible.

Also here, here and here, or just about any other calculator you care to use, all give similar predictions for 39dB attenuation, and all come up with around 2800m which is well within the ball park.

JohnRoss, what debit speed does Degrouptest actually say for your line ?

PS: Have a read here too

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Thanks for the info and the result is very similar to the other one above:

 Votre FAI : SFR ADSL (SFR)
Débit descendant : 523 kbps (65.4 Ko/s) - Débit montant : 138 kbps (17.3 Ko/s) - Ping : 104 ms
Testé sur http://www.degrouptest.com/test-debit.php - vendredi 16 juillet 2010 22:57:12 ............................JR

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[quote user="AnOther"]No, not at all.

Admittedly calculating adaptive ADSL which is not common in France according to this calculator for that line length and attenuation 6mb+ is theoretically possible.

Also here, here and here, or just about any other calculator you care to use, all give similar predictions for 39dB attenuation, and all come up with around 2800m which is well within the ball park.

JohnRoss, what debit speed does Degrouptest actually say for your line ?

PS: Have a read here too

[/quote]

Those links seem to be all referring to ADSL 2 or ADSL 2+. Out here in the boonies with over 5 kms of wind-blown copper between me and the nearest FT cabinet, vanilla ADSL is as much as we can hope for. 602 is what degrouptest estimates, and 602 is roughly what I get.

p

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gyn_paul:

Calculators are mostly based on current industry standard theoretical line losses of 13.1dB/km. In France many different cable sizes have been used over the years and actual line losses will, in most cases be significantly higher. The attenuation you see on sites such as Degrouptest are themselves nothing more than calculations based on historical information held bt FT in what is a poorly maintained database.

Along with the attenuation results you get on Degrouptest you will see something like:

4/10 sur 1920 mètres

6/10 sur 3016 mètres

What these numbers mean is that, according to FT, your line consists of 2 lengths of cable, one 0.4mm dia and 1920m long and another 0.6mm and 3016m. The relative losses for those cable sizes are as follows:

0.4mm - 15dB/km

0.5mm - 12.4dB/km

0.6mm - 10.3dB/

0.8mm - 7.9dB/km

If you do the sums on your own lengths and losses you will arrive at precisely your thoretical attenuation, to 4 decimal places, and unfortunately FT will not permit ISP's to offer a service faster than the theretical line losses permit. The problem is that, as I said earlier, FT's database is wanting in that it seems to have not been accurately updated when replacement cables have relaid or rerouted. Generally when new or replacement cables are installed they will be of a thicker size than the original so you can easily understand that a supposed line length of say 5000m with 60dB or so attenuation might result in a miserable offering of 512kb whereas the reality might be that the line is much shorter and/or less lossy (or could be more !) and therefore capable of supporting a considerably higher speed. This is where a full degroupee ISP like SFR can come into play as with control of the line they are totally free of FT's numbers and able to offer a

service based on what any particular line will actually support.

In practice there is only one number which you can rely on at all to indicate your actual line losses and potential and that is the attenuation reported by your router and in theory there is no reason whatsoever for that your line not to be able to support the speeds approaching those indicated on the chart on the site I linked to earlier here for that.

According to the chart gun_paul your losses of 56.886dB indicate a line length of some 4100m and a maximum possible theroetical ADSL speed of something like 1.5mb and for JR's 39db approximately 2900m and a maximum speed of 7mb. It's important to note that these will be maximum sync speeds and actual download speeds will be maybe 25% lower.

As a practical demonstration when I was with Teleconnect (spit) although my line was supposedly a shade under 5000m my attenuation was 49db and the sync speed with the exchange was around 6mb, all tieing in with both my estimation of its actual length being around 3600km and the chart, however, because of the FT figures, Teleconnect (spit) could only give me a 2mb service whereas there is little doubt that my line will comfortably support nearly twice that.

JR: your results do not look as if they are from Degrouptest.

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Ok got this......JR:

Informations techniques

Caractéristiques générales de la ligne :

Etat de la ligne : ACTIVE
Code Commutateur Local : 79******
Nom Commutateur Local : *********
Longueur de ligne : 2610 mètres :

4/10 sur 2610 mètres
Affaiblissement théorique : 39.15 dB
[Estimation] Débit descendant ADSL : 4885 kbps (611 ko/s)
[Estimation] Débit descendant ADSL 2+ : 7209 kbps (901 ko/s)

Caractéristiques du central France Télécom :

Plaque ADSL : PO1
Type de DSLAM : ALCATEL ou ECI
Zone Dense (> 20 000 lignes) : Non
Nombre d'abonnés approximatif : 500
NRA compatible ADSL FT : Oui
NRA compatible ADSL Max FT : Non
NRA compatible ADSL2+ FT : Non
NRA compatible ReADSL FT : Oui

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...... and I got this :

Technical information

Characteristics of the line :

Line status : ACTIVE
Local Switch Code : 23015AZE [ Detailed ]
Local Switch Name : THE BROOM
Line length : 5620 meters:

6 / 10 to 5620 meters
Attenuation theoretical 57,886 dB
[Estimate] Downstream ADSL : 1390 kbps ( 174 KB / s )
[Estimate] Downstream ADSL 2 + : 1348 kbps (169 KB / s)

Characteristics of central France Telecom :

Plate DSL: LI1
DSLAM Type : ALCATEL or ECI
Dense area (> 20,000 lines): Not
Approximate Number of subscribers : 1000
NRA ADSL compatible FT: Yes
NRA compatible ADSL Max FT : Yes
NRA consistent ADSL2 + FT : Yes
NRA compatible READSL FT : Yes
Operators

FT Offers Internet IP / DSL:

IP ADSL 512 ( 512/128 kbps) Possible
1024 IP ADSL R ( 1024 Kbps/128 Kbps) Impossible
IP ADSL 1024 Pro ( 1024 Kbps/256 Kbps) Impossible
IP ADSL 2048/256 ( 2048 Kbps/256 Kbps ) Impossible
IP ADSL Max (Up to 8 Mégas/800kbps ) Impossible
IP ADSL Max 2 + (Up to 18 Mégas/1Mbps ) Impossible

ADSL Orange (Cf. IP ADSL ) Possible
Naked DSL ( without subscription FT ) Possible
+ Orange TV ( Bouquet Orange TV ) Possible ( )
+ Orange HDTV Impossible
Canal + (Canal + and CanalSat) Impossible

All ISPs on this network

ADSL Max 2+ (Jusqu'à 18 mégas) Free
NordNet
Orange
ADSL Max (Jusqu'à 8 mégas) Alice
Budget Telecom
Dartybox
[ + ] view

ISPs using the network are exclusively Nordnet and Orange.

Type of connection proposed Option 3
Unbundling to 6.4 Mbps/640k Impossible
Unbundling up to 16 Mbps/800k Impossible

Naked DSL ( without subscription FT ) Possible
+ Telephony over ADSL (VoIP) Possible
ADSL + TV : TV, Canal + , CanalSat Impossible

Estimated download speed possible 533 kbps
Estimated amount of flow possible 133 kbps

Average time of activation of a line N / C

The SFR network is used by SFR , Nerim and Magic Online.

Type of connection proposed No

Naked DSL ( without subscription FT ) Impossible
+ Telephony over ADSL ( VoIP) Impossible
ADSL + TV : TV, Canal +, CanalSat Impossible

Estimated download speed possible -
Estimated amount of flow possible -

Network is used by Numericable Completel and DartyBox .

Type of connection proposed Option 5

Naked ADSL ( without subscription FT ) Possible
+ Telephony over ADSL (VoIP) Impossible
ADSL + TV : TV, Canal + , CanalSat Impossible

Estimated download speed possible 512kbps
Estimated amount of flow possible 128kbps

Bouygues Telecom 's network is only used by Bouygues Telecom .

==============================================================

as you can see, all the offers are for 512.

Am I confused ? - that's my default position !

p

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It looks like FT have got you on a max 1mb package as 602kbps is faster than a 512kbps connection could run but the critical number to see the real situation is the actual attenuation reported by your Livebox so what is that ?

Interestingly my own (totally incorrect) numbers are not dissimilar to yours, slightly worse in fact, yet although Degrouptest says 512kbps max, even for FT, when I did switch to them from Teleconnect (spit) they were actually able to give me 1mb, you can draw your own conclusions as to why that might be !

Just to prove my point about estimations BTW, 5620m x 10.3dB/km (for 0.6mm cable) = 57.886dB !

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[quote user="AnOther"]Need I say

more !

I'd get onto FT first thing on Monday morning and ask them why they cannot give

you the 5-7mb your line supports [;-)]

[/quote]

Is it not because the NRA at the exchange is only enabled for ADSL and not ADSL

2 or ADSL+?

as it said:

NRA

compatible ADSL FT :

Oui

NRA

compatible ADSL Max FT :

Non

NRA

compatible ADSL2+ FT :

Non

NRA

compatible ReADSL FT :

Oui

so that means: equipped for ADSL and ReADSL only and does not have the bits

equipped to enable higher speed ADSL

Or have I misunderstood something?

Strangely enough, this is exactly what our results said with slightly different

measures and line lengths etc but... in the last few days it has changed to

this

Caractéristiques générales de la ligne :

Etat

de la ligne :

ACTIVE

Code

Commutateur Local :

46211NUZ [ Fiche

détaillée ]

Nom

Commutateur Local :

NUZEJOULS

Longueur

de ligne :

1602 mètres :

6/10 sur 1602 mètres

Affaiblissement

théorique :

16.5006 dB

[Estimation]

Débit descendant ADSL :

8159 kbps (1020 ko/s)

[Estimation]

Débit descendant ADSL 2+ :

18398 kbps (2300 ko/s)

 

Caractéristiques du central France Télécom :

Plaque

ADSL :

MP1

Type

de DSLAM :

ECI

Zone

Dense (> 20 000 lignes) :

Non

Nombre

d'abonnés approximatif :

500

NRA

compatible ADSL FT :

Oui

NRA

compatible ADSL Max FT :

Oui

NRA

compatible ADSL2+ FT :

Oui

NRA

compatible ReADSL FT :

Oui

 

Nothing has changed from before except that

the ADSL MAX and ADSL2+ are now marked as compatible.

I can only presume that the local connection has been upgraded lately. I have

been following a lot of our local numbers over a long period of time -

neighbours etc. and our whole commune has gone from a fixed 2 MB for years to

varying levels from approx 5MB to 20 MB as of yesterday.

I called Orange yesterday to ask if it is possible to upgrade my speed from the

2MB we have had since ADSL was available here and I was told that I can now

have 20 MB all of a sudden. There may be hope for you yet Ernie!!

Apparently the increase in speed is underway for my line. I have yet to see any

difference either in actual speed or in the Orange Espace client which still

says Découverte Internet 2010 8MB(2MB) (up to

speeds and real speed)

Livebox stats still say:

1.14

Atténuation montante :

14.0 dB

1.15

Atténuation descendante :

33.6 dB

1.16

Marge au bruit sens montant :

1 dB

1.17

Marge au bruit descendante :

22 dB

1.18

Débit montant maximum :

326 kb/s

1.19

Débit descendant maximum :

2432 kb/s

I am not counting chickens yet though but if it goes OK I should in theory see

a speed of 8MB or even faster if we change to a 'Formule' or 'Net' package.

Danny



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Plain old vanilla ADSL should give those sort of speeds on a 2600m line with 39dB attenuation.

Again check out the chart at http://www.internode.on.net/residential/broadband/adsl/extreme/performance

Interesting post though Danny as I see on Degrouptest that my exchange is now similarly fully NRA enabled so I'll be onto FT myself on Monday morning !

Ta for the tip [;-)]

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[quote user="AnOther"]It looks like FT have got you on a max 1mb package as 602kbps is faster than a 512kbps connection could run but the critical number to see the real situation is the actual attenuation reported by your Livebox so what is that ?

Interestingly my own (totally incorrect) numbers are not dissimilar to yours, slightly worse in fact, yet although Degrouptest says 512kbps max, even for FT, when I did switch to them from Teleconnect (spit) they were actually able to give me 1mb, you can draw your own conclusions as to why that might be !

Just to prove my point about estimations BTW, 5620m x 10.3dB/km (for 0.6mm cable) = 57.886dB !

[/quote]

Mine's actually a freebox; that being the case, how do I get it to report the actual line attenuation?

p

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This is a really interesting thread, to which I've arrived somewhat belatedly, but I'd appreciate some expert advice.

From my Livebox:

1.1   Nom du fabricant :Sagem

1.2   Modèle :Livebox 2 Mini

1.3   Pays :France

1.4   Firmware :h323-fr-7.2.9.8

1.5   Firmware FT :v7.2-h323-fr

1.6   Etat de la connexion :Connecté

1.7   Etat de ligne ADSL :Connecté

1.8   Etat du compte PPP :Connecté

1.9   Nom d'utilisateur :fti/bb2c972

1.10 Adresse IP WAN :90.60.240.163

1.11 Adresse IP BAS :90.60.240.1

1.12 Serveur DNS primaire :80.10.246.130,81.253.149.2

1.13 Serveur DNS secondaire :80.10.246.130,81.253.149.2
Caractéristiques techniques :

1.14 Atténuation Up (dB) :20,7

dB

1.15 Atténuation Down (dB) :41,3

dB

1.16 Signal bruit Up (dB) :35,0

dB

1.17 Signal bruit Down (dB) :29,0

dB

1.18 Débit maximum possible ligne Up (kb/s) :947 kb/s

1.19 Débit maximum possible ligne Down (kb/s) :6844 kb/s

1.20 Puissance émise (dBm) :12,1

dBm

1.21 Puissance reçue (dBm) :17,1

dBm

From Degrouptest

Caractéristiques générales de la ligne :

Etat de la ligne :

ACTIVE

Code Commutateur Local :

09005CDA [

Fiche détaillée
]

Nom Commutateur Local :

CASTET-ALEU

Longueur de ligne :

4128 mètres :

6/10 sur 4128 mètres

Affaiblissement théorique :

42.5184 dB

[Estimation]

Débit descendant ADSL :

4107 kbps (513 ko/s)

[Estimation]

Débit descendant ADSL 2+ :

5679 kbps (710 ko/s)

Caractéristiques du central France Télécom :

Plaque ADSL :

MP1

Type de DSLAM :

ALCATEL

Zone Dense (> 20 000 lignes) :

Non

Nombre d'abonnés approximatif :

500

NRA compatible ADSL FT :

Oui

NRA compatible ADSL Max FT :

Oui

NRA compatible ADSL2+ FT :

Oui

NRA compatible ReADSL FT :

Non

From the speed test:

Votre FAI : Orange (BSTOU159 Toulouse Bloc 2)

Débit

descendant : 1036 kbps (129.5 Ko/s) - Débit montant : 269

kbps (33.6 Ko/s) - Ping : 83 ms

Testé sur

http://www.degrouptest.com/test-debit.php - Sat 17 Jul 2010 18:57:40 CET

- Test n°8694485

So, the livebox reckons I should be getting some 6.8Mbps; Degrouptest conservatively rates it at 4.1 or 5.6 Mbps; but I'm only getting 1Mbps.

So, is this because of my subscription, is there a fault, which I can get fixed (how?) or am I misreading the data?

Any advice appreciated.

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According to your actual attenuation, which pretty well matches Degrouptest, and your line length, you should be getting around the 4mb indicated so you may be on a limited package. It sometimes happens that changes are made by FT which significantly improve your line stats from when you first signed up with your ISP but they have no obligation to inform you hence it pays to check on Degrouptest from time to time.

Your should contact FT/Orange and see if they can and will upgrade you.

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  • 2 weeks later...
Used the 1013.fr link to report the problem and two engineers arrived today following a call from FT yesterday seeking more information from me. They checked the telephone socket in the house and the junction box up the pole in the road outside. The guy said that all was well there but that he suspected lightning damage somewhere between us and the exchange in the village. A few minutes later he rang me to say that he had found the fault and fixed it. So thank you FT and thanks to all for the information. Now a happier bunny with no crackles but still a slow internet. Contacted SFR/AOL by email but they say that I need to speak to their technical bods and that it only possible by telephone or letter and not email so that is a problem still to be sorted however we make some progress. Letter I think as would have trouble describing the results of the speed and other tests in English let alone French on the phone..............................JR
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