Our view as to how to treat pets.

[Llwyncelyn]

We live in (50) and admit to being rather too 'soft' with our animals and which include dogs cats chickens et al.

However that is our nature and not necessarily the views of the French population.  Therefore we should not impose our views as to what we recognise as being standard practice upon those and in whose country we live.

That said we see every day a young terrier type dog chained up outside a house in all winds and weather with a bowl outside for feeding purposes.  Today we witnessed were we live lots and lots of rain and the dog of course was subjected to the elements.  Please do not offend me by saying the dog should know better.

Our values are our values the French in relation to lots of things adopt an approach with which we either agree or do not agree.  As a starting point let us suggest veal and the way that they are treated.

We are meat and fish eaters so do recognise that life is somewhat to the point so there are no double standards in our household on that point.

However we do feel strongly as to the way that we view (and we view no one else) the way this dog is being treated.  Advice and suggestions please.

[Cassis]

I don't know what the exact law is on the treatment of domestic pets but there is a body similar to the RSPCA:

http://www.protection-des-animaux.org/

[Rob Roy]

" As a starting point let us suggest veal and the way that they are treated."

Meaning?

[Christine Animal]

If the dog has no shelter, it should have, it's the law.  You can alert the Gendarmes, the DDSV (Direction Départementale des Services Vétérinaires) of your département and they can send an inspector.  If the dog is chained, it should be of a certain length, etc.

If you have a local SPA, you can also let them know about it.

[Llwyncelyn]

If I have to go down the route as to how veau are treated and fed milk so that the flesh becomes white then I have truly lost the battle and indeed never ever see daylight say for the fact through the slats of vehicles coming from the UK to either France or Holland then I truly have lost the battle.

 

[Rob Roy]

Not true in the Limousin. Here all calves are left with their mothers in the field until going to local abatoirs for slaughter.

[saddie]

I was under the impression that the law had been changed in regard to "milk fed" veal and the battery type of processing was no longer allowed. If you want to criticise elevage procedure whan was the last time you saw a field of goats in France?

[andyh4]

[quote user="saddie"]I was under the impression that the law had been changed in regard to "milk fed" veal and the battery type of processing was no longer allowed. If you want to criticise elevage procedure whan was the last time you saw a field of goats in France?[/quote]

Come to the Northern Ardèche Sadie - lots and lots of goats - all out in the fields doing what goats do best - trying to get out[:D]

[Cassis]

There's a hell of a lot of calves about in the fields of Normandy, too.  I asked Bruno, a local farmer with a mixed farm but mainly milkers, and he says none of the calves are kept in crates these days - they are all free to roam with their mothers until slaughter time.  I don't know if that is universal, though.

[Judie]

No, certainly not universal. Here in Southern Manche ( 50 ), my neighbour takes the calves away at 2 or 3 days. The male and female calves go in individual stalls in his brand new ' batiment ' until they are a certain age ( about 2 weeks old, I think ). The males then go off to market and the females go into another area with other females of a similar age. They aren't mistreated but the terrible crying of some of the mothers is heart rending.

[Christine Animal]

I thought Llwyncelyn was concerned about a little dog and now you've got me looking at veaux...

and Yahoo, Yahoo, no more "élevage en batterie" in Europe after January 2007.  From what I understand, this was decided back in 1997 and applied to all new breeders since January 1998.  But next year it will apply to all breeders (this is thanks to pressure fom animal rights organisations) :

http://www.onevoice-ear.org/campagnes/elevage_industriel/interdiction_vx_batterie.html

 

You have the spécialité of "veau sous la mère", which is when the calf is fed directly by its mother, next category is the calf which is taken from its mother, kept on straw in decent conditions and fed milk :

http://www.linternaute.com/femmes/cuisine/magazine/dossier/0606-veau/labels.shtml

 

Veau sous la mère :

http://perso.orange.fr/ch.delpy/

http://www.veausouslamere.com/

 

[mickey jim]

I know someone that lives next to a farmer who had a purpose built barn erected last autumn for veal.  They most definitely do not run around at their will but apparently are in tiny areas, where they cannot move.  What's worse is the stentch was awful during July and August - not sure if they weren't cleaned out or there was another problem.  So not sure how they have got around the new law, but they have...

[Cassis]

Ugh.  Lesson - know the provenance of your meat!

[Viv]

I just wish organic meat was more widely available. I can get organic beef which I eat and veal, which I don't like the taste of, easily.

But, what I'd pay for some proper tasty pig!

[Christine Animal]

Don't you have any good charcuteries in your area Diva, they usually have good pork which is not "industriel".

 

[Rob Roy]

What do you class as organic?

[WJT]

Here in the Dordogne as well. Our local farmer has these very small metal dome shaped boxes he keeps calves in, the poor things cannot stand or even move at all. If that is not cruel enough, I cannot imagine the intolerable heat they endure in the summer months in these tiny metal boxes they spend there entire lives in.[:'(]

I think the least we can do, even the biggest meat eaters among us is to give up eating veal. To buy veal and support animals being raised in such cruelty is beyond me. A very small sacrifice indeed. [:(]

[Rob Roy]

[quote user="WJT"]

Here in the Dordogne as well. Our local farmer has these very small metal dome shaped boxes he keeps calves in, the poor things cannot stand or even move at all. If that is not cruel enough, I cannot imagine the intolerable heat they endure in the summer months in these tiny metal boxes they spend there entire lives in.[:'(]

I think the least we can do, even the biggest meat eaters among us is to give up eating veal. To buy veal and support animals being raised in such cruelty is beyond me. A very small sacrifice indeed. [:(]

[/quote]

Or perhaps buy veal sourced from those raised with their mothers, then perhaps others will follow that example?

[WJT]

How would you ever know though? Unless you went directly to the farmer and could see for yourself, I would never trust that that was the case. I still think it is a very small sacrifice.

[Viv]

[quote user="Rob Roy"]What do you class as organic?[/quote]

The BIO farmer I buy from assures me that the animals are better cared for, in a better environment, better food (not GM muck with additives) and not injected full of uneccessary drugs.

I have to take him on trust as on this !

Christine I'll be sure to seek out a charcuterie this week.

Regarding the veal, even if 'we' don't eat it, the calves would still be born wouldn't they as the dairy cows have to have a calf to ensure mlk production, I think [8-)]. As unfortunate as the veal trade can be, what would the alternative be? I can only think that the animals life would be worse and  cut shorter  and perhaps just being used as Zoo fodder.

[Llwyncelyn]

We bought in 2001 and live in (50) near Villedieu well near Percy.  Our great electrician who did work for us in 2001/2002/2003 is no longer available in that he is providing lighting for huge buildings which are going up to house veal.  What started off as a dialogue as to the well-being of a little dog has gone off-track and for that I apologise for I now know from this forum that if you keep strictly to the facts and do not throw bombs all over the place then you should be ok.

sorry.

 

[Viv]

These topics do evolve and I know I am guilty of sending them off track [:$] so sorry about that.

but I thought your request about what to do about a little dog had been answered earlier on.?

I think the discussion about the veal and meat is a good one too.

 

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="Diva Star"]

I think the discussion about the veal and meat is a good one too.

 [/quote]

It is. Most good butchers display information regarding the origin

of their meats and are (usually) happy to answer questions about it.

All types of meat are available reared to the highest standards of

welfare - its really just a question of pounding the pavements until

you find a source.

[winterbunny]

[quote user="Jon D"][quote user="Diva Star"]

I think the discussion about the veal and meat is a good one too.

 [/quote]

It is. Most good butchers display information regarding the origin of their meats and are (usually) happy to answer questions about it. All types of meat are available reared to the highest standards of welfare - its really just a question of pounding the pavements until you find a source.

[/quote]

Absolutely, the only way is to be sure of the source of the meat, that normally means knowing the individual farmer, not practical for most town dwellers; and are folk prepared to pay the price that would have to be charged, there would be no really cheap meat - not that's a bad thing, we'd all fare better health wise if we ate a little less meat based protein.  The biggest problem is that most veau are a by-product (not a nice way of putting it but true) of the dairy industry.  This doean't apply to beef herds like Limousin.  If there was less milk product demand there'd be less need for farmers to have the cows calf and then have to dispose of the result especially the males as there doesn't seem to be a market to raise them for beef. So, if you don't like the veal trade, consider consuming less milk, cheese, butter, cream, yohurt etc. Now what to do with those out of work dairy farmers............

The doggie problem is widespread, we see lots of places where the dogs are kept tied up, but they usually have a place to shelter, if they don't then it's definately an SPA job.  If the animal is obviously cared for despite being tied up, there's not a lot you can do about it. [:(] 

 

[WJT]

I agree with what you say. However, I would never buy veal under any circumstances. I personally feel that it would be kinder to kill the animal to start with rather than give it such a short cruel and painful life and then kill it. I believe anything that would encourage this sort of treatment is wrong and the sooner people simply stop buying veal full stop the sooner this product will no longer exist.

I do know that most of the supermarkets in the UK have stopped selling it many have stated that their customers find it offensive. Too right [:(].

As far as how many dogs are treated in France, it is heartbreaking isn't it? Every time I leave our house in France I have to drive by a dreadful situation with a little terrier chained up living on a log pile near the road that is completely overgrown with weeds. Very very sad [:(]. Unfortunately, as you said this is not uncommon.