'burgled' before final signing...(also on legal forum, sorry for dupe)

[Iain T]

 We just been told by our french agents that the current owners have reported that some of the furniture that was included in the sale has been stolen. They have offered to reduce the final price by the amount that was listed in the inventory - however they deliberately valued the contents very low (something to do with tax I suspect) It seems very convenient that the most valuable pieces of furniture have been 'stolen' - Should we just accept the price reduction €210 (for 6 henri II chairs, table and mirror)try for more reduction, or could we ask for it to be replaced  - they have said that they have contacted the police and their insurance. Obviously I'm not suggesting anything untoward is taking place, but it does seem v fishy. We have photo records of the missing furniture. We are due to complete 21/12/04

Thanks Iain 

[Baz]

An interesting problem. I just had a thought that as they say they have contacted the police why not ask either the agent or the Notaire to find out from the police what value they have put on the missing furniture. As the sale is based on an agreed amount for the contents it is perfectly reasonable to find out the amount of the quoted loss from either the police or even the insurance company, because of your vested interest. As these inquiries should not take very long it will still give you a chance to agree the reduction in contents before your competion date.

Baz

[Dave&Olive]

just thinking out loud ,if you had agreed to buy the house and fittings and also take over the house insurance on completion then you have been burgled pay the full asking price and tell the owners you will have the payout from the insurance company, That might change their tune.......

[Russethouse]

Is there such a thing as a crime number in France you could ask for ?

What was the point of entry and has any damage been made good ?

Just as well to satisy yourself about niggling doubts.

[0BRIAN WOODHEADI,m here in franceddMMyyyy0Falseen-USI,m here in franceTrue]

The signing date can changed with out any problem,so if you are still investigating the missing items tell the notaire to put the sale on hold for awhile.The terms of the sale are not being honoured with the items missing forming part of the sale,you should be within your rights to demand the items be replaced like for like and do not take less money for the missing  items than you know the value of them to be.

[Racerbear02]

I am sorry but I am a bit confused here, Iain agreed to buy some furniture at a mutually agreed price, the items have been stolen in the meanwhile, the vendors have offered to reduce the fee by the agreed price, what is the problem??

Unless there was some under the table cash transaction involved as well, or these bits of furniture were the deal maker, it seems unlikely that 210€ would make you agree to buy a house or not, what the vendors have proposed seems to be fair and just on the face of it.

Presumably at the time of listing these items on the house sale paperwork, Iain did not insist that they be valued a lot higher and ask to pay more for them. I have no idea of what sort of value we are talking about for these items at an auction, perhaps Iain could enlighten us.

If the vendors have tried an insurance claim at a much higher value, then Iain should approach the insurance comapny with evidence of the value they agreed on aad leave it up to the insurers to sort out, however this is hardly the way to engender good relations for the rest of the sale proceedure.

Having agreed to a value, is Iain now a party to a fraud regarding payment of taxes on the property and contents? I feel he should approach the notaire with all the details and see what they advise.

I hope for all concerned that it can be resolved amicably

Good luck

[Boiling a frog]

[quote]I am sorry but I am a bit confused here, Iain agreed to buy some furniture at a mutually agreed price, the items have been stolen in the meanwhile, the vendors have offered to reduce the fee by the ag...[/quote]

I am also confused Cannot think how the undervalue of the furniture is a tax fiddle .You dont pay CGT on the contents of a house.Perhaps the owners do not need the furniture and are willing to sell it to Iain for a knock down price.Secondly Iain you are very suspicious and with absolutely no logic or evidence you assume that the owners  did not have a burglary and are at it.As for going to the gendarmes and asking for the crime report if you tried that in the UK you would be told that it was none of your business.But what amazes me more than anything is that most of the other poster agree with your logic. 

[Will]

This sort of thing isn't uncommon. I'm thinking of the example of one of the proverbial wrecks in a field that had lain untouched for years. Almost as soon as it went on the market, the antique floor tiles were mysteriously removed - not particularly valuable in themselves, but certainly of use to somebody renovating a similar house in the area. The agent reported it to the gendarmes who assumed it was one of the punters that the agent had shown round - probably solely with a view to seeing what was useful in the place. Coulld something similar have happened here?

[0BRIAN WOODHEADI,m here in franceddMMyyyy0Falseen-USI,m here in franceTrue]

The point is that and billy conk and dave are missing is that when one has signed the CDV that is the contract and the house, property or what ever must be what is stated on it and if the house was sold with some chairs that had been "nicked" the future owner is not the one to lose out,just because the sellers suffer a robbery does not make any difference to the buyer,the buyer is entiled to what he/she/they agreed to and not to the valule that was put either by the sellers or the insurance the buyer is intiltled to what they signed for and if some stuff has gone missing the sellers are liablev to replace it/them.

[Russethouse]

I think what is suspected is that the sellers discovered their items were worth a lot more or had a better offer.

Even if none of the items were valuable as antique at the price quoted they were a very good buy for a table and chairs.

There is little point in falling out with the vendor at this stage, how about pointing out that you will have to either search locally for more or maybe bring some with you, all extra time and expense, perhaps €500 would be more reasonable?

[Boiling a frog]

[quote]The point is that and billy conk and dave are missing is that when one has signed the CDV that is the contract and the house, property or what ever must be what is stated on it and if the house was so...[/quote]

Can you give us the legal text that sets these rights out or as I suspect you are a barrack room lawyer with little or indeed no legal knowledge.

To interpret your post,if I agreed to sell you a car at 1000 euros but have not yet received any money from you and someone comes along and steals the car then I am legally obliged to find exactly the same car and sell it to you despite the fact that you have not suffered any loss you still have your money and can go and find another car to buy.

[0BRIAN WOODHEADI,m here in franceddMMyyyy0Falseen-USI,m here in franceTrue]

Frog boiler,all the info anyone needs about a sale entered into in france and reached past the CDV signing stage will be found on the CDV, so no one needs to be in the army or any other service to know what is in the contract they have signed.So if you or anyone signs a contract then they are the terms of the sale,and just because the contract is in french is no excuse not to understand them,that said I have bought two houses in france with out the need for any help from anyone and your liking a house sale to you buying car falls down like a pack of cards,if I am not wrong and I know I am notyou must first pay the deposit on a house via a notaire unlike buying a car a the notaire must be paid a fee for their work,if that car you are buying and maybe you paid a deposit on it,at the time of collection had only three wheels on it and the salesman said here,s twenty quid thats all I had the car wheel insured for would you take the car and the twenty quid, you might do but I for sure would not.

[Boiling a frog]

[quote]Frog boiler,all the info anyone needs about a sale entered into in france and reached past the CDV signing stage will be found on the CDV, so no one needs to be in the army or any other service to kno...[/quote]

A yes but if you had agreed at the time of the contract that the car was being sold with all the various bits listed and a price for all the bits then if the wheel and tyre were listed at 20 quid then why expect to be given any more if the wheel and tyre were stolen You have agreed that is the price for the wheel and tyre.

In all contracts there is always a get out clause if the supplier is unable to supply the goods due to factors outwith his control ie the goods are stolen.