A cautionary tale

[Experosborn]

I thought it might be useful for anyone thinking of moving to France with teenagers to hear about what has happened in our family recently. We moved just over 2 years ago with two daughters of 11 and 13. After the expected, but nonetheless traumatic difficulties in settling into the French education system, both of the girls survived the first two years and the youngest, who is now 13, is fairly happy.  Being younger, she picked up the language very quickly and has an extra two years to prepare for the 'brevet'.  

 However, our eldest daughter, now 15 yrs old, who passed the 'brevet' with good marks, was so desperately unhappy at the Lycee which she started going to at the beginning of September, that we have taken her out of the French system (not enough time to explain my views on  French teaching methods at the moment!)

She is now studying at home for 8 GCSEs which she will take next Summer. She has been happily studying for 6 hours a day and it is wonderful to see her face alight with motivation again.

I'm not saying that this would suit everyone; my point is that bringing children over the age of 11 to France and expecting them to settle happily into the French system may not be as straightforward as some would suggest.

I really don't want to be negative-there are huge advantages to living here and it is a joy to hear the girls chatting away happily in French. I do wish though that I had known more about the Education system before making the life changing decision to emigrate.

Jo Osborn

[Tresco]

Jo, thanks for posting this, although the background to it must have been really difficult for you and your older daughter.

I was not as brave as you, and refused to move here with a dependent child. It's a really tricky one, isn't it, till you do it for real?

I hope you stay with the forum, you have been here longer than I have, and ha

[Tresco]

sorry, I somehow managed to post without finishing. I hope you stay. If you have been here 2 years you are in a position to help or advise others, as well as get the odd bit of help here yourself.

tresco

[Mistral]

I'm sorry to hear your story, unfortunately I'm not all that surprised.

I am a collège teacher and over the last few weeks a lot of my 3emes from last year have popped back in to visit. Most of them are in a state of shock from what they are going through at the moment in lycée. These are bright French kids who have been through the French system from the start. This happens every year so I spent quite a lot of last year warning them that their first year in lycée would be tough, but they are still having trouble adapting. I know from experience that by christmas most of them will have managed it, but at least 25% won't be going on to 1ere next year.

[Musicmonkey<ADDRESS><STRONG>Musicmonkey<STRONG><ADDRESS>]

This difficult transition period is not exclusive to France.  2 years ago, as a mature student, I started a college course with students who'd just left school having done GCSE's.  Our class, within the first term, lost 50% of  the students.  By the end of the second year of the course the numbers were more than halved again.  Many complained that it was much harder than they'd expected, soooo much harder than GCSE's. 

Musicmonkey

[SaligoBay]

Can you tell us what they found hard, Musicmonkey?

One thing the youngsters find hard here is the long days - I was talking to someone recently whose daughter has to get the 7am bus to lycée to start classes at 8am, and at least that day she finished at 6pm.

 

[Miki]

Daughter at Lycee Superieur has 3 days finishing at 6 p.m, one day 5p.m and another at 4 p.m. She also gets the bus at around 7 a.m every day.

The Uni drop out rate in Rennes runs at about 50% not getting through the first year. Daughter has 3 class mates that couldn't hack it at Rennes Uni last school year and now, are happier in the much smaller classes in Saint Malo and all doing a slightly different course.

I took a peek at her work the other night and it might just as well have been in Chinese. Let's be pretty straight here, we (well quite a few of us anyway!) are not a lot of use to our kids when it comes to homework after Bac.

Mind you, I wasn't too much use after Brevet !!

The Primaire and early college days are a pushover compared to what comes later, well for me anyway  

[Martinemj]

we will be moving to our house in france permanently

in march 05(bought house mid 2002)

the children will be 5 & 14,

i have read a lot of different views about teenagers joining the french system and although wish we had moved 2 yrs earlier for her benefit it wasnt the right time for us (mentaly and financialy, house sale ect..another story)

anyone have any views or experiance of moving over with children of this age ,

i tend to agree with the view that after 11 things become harder (to adapt).what about 14 .

reguards

martin

[Musicmonkey<ADDRESS><STRONG>Musicmonkey<STRONG><ADDRESS>]

 <<Can you tell us what they found hard, Musicmonkey? One thing the youngsters find hard here is the long days >>

I'm not really sure, but maybe if something had to 'give' maybe the language class was what had to go.  At the beginning of the course the tutors took us through a transition period to revise various elements of grammar, vocab etc.  At that point a lot of the students were moaning about finding it difficult.  As it's many years since I was at school I had been worried about the grammar being a bit rusty.  I needn't have worried though as it is not a high priority for GCSE students these days.  There is more emphasis on being able to communicate in set ways and topical vocabulary.

I don't think the days are particularly long unless the student has to travel a long distance to the college.  It starts at 9am and finishes at 5pm ish

I apologise to those who will no doubt claim that we are off topic!

Musicmonkey

[Brumble]

We are moving over to brittany before christmas with our children age 10, 7 and 3.  I was hoping we wouldn't have any major problems although i do realise it will be very hard for the children for the first 6 months maybe even a year but you have all made me worry a bit now!  I do often think is this move the best thing and decided eventually that it will be a much better life for our children with more freedom and space etc.  I better keep my fingers crossed i don't encounter the unfortunate problems alot of you have had with your children!

Cary

[Deby]

In my opinion I believe France is very good for young children - primary education is sufficient if your children are at least average.

With regard to secondary education I am not convinced France is the ideal place.  I do know a few ex-pat families who have decided to allow their 'older' children to continue or even send their children to the UK to take their GCSE'S, then follow-on with the subsequent A levels and finally university. 

I ask one question of those families who plan to bring those children of secondary age level (11 onwards) to france

What benefit do they believe French education has over British education?

Deby

[Martinemj]

i have a 14 yr old girl

so would i take it that you would reccomend her to finish gcse s in uk as apposed to joining the french school sysytem.

we have thought about this hard and it may be an option.

[SaligoBay]

Martine,

I don't think it's a question of whether French or UK education is "better", because those discussions are a bit futile really.

Maybe it's more useful to think about what you imagine your daughter will be doing when she's, say, 20.

The youngsters of that age that I know in the UK all seem very positive about their futures.  Two  went straight into accountancy offices with inhouse/college training, and already have their own brand new cars.  Another one, after difficult teenage years involving drugs & the police, did basic army training,  came out and did a course in personal fitness training, and now has a good job with a load of clients already, and at 20 is also doing very nicely thank you.   And so on.

I spent Sunday afternoon with about 15 youngsters here in France, aged about 24-25.  All clever, smart, fun, etc, but what are they doing?  Systeme D, ils se débrouillent.  They do waitering etc when they can to get a bit of money to fund the next part of their education, and when the education's finished there still aren't enough jobs to go round.    

That's a bit black-and-white, I know, and of course there are people in France who find financial success at a young age, but from similar discussions we've had here in the past, I think it's fair to say that there are, disons, a "different" set of opportunities available to youngsters in the UK. 

Dunno, depends what you want from life!  One of the French girls the other day was saying how much she loved India, the people were so friendly and generous, so far removed from the materialistic attitudes in France.  Sound familiar ?

 

 

 

 

 

[Val_2]

If I had a 14 year old I would not thrust her into the french system, she just has too much to make up for as well as two foreign languages to learn before the Brevêt at 15/16. Having had nearly ten years of my kids in french education it is hard, no matter how good they may be in their subjects in the UK,at the end of the day if they don't have primary school french behind them then they will find it hard and not get a lot of help. Of course, different depts have different levels of help which is available,but in rural areas the finances don't stretch to help foreign students. Lycée is a whole new ballgame, usually a large establishment with a couple of thousand students in the larger towns and even bigger in the cities. Teachers seem much more militant and are strong 8-5.30 only;no extra hours given to helping.Children are usually seperated from the only friends they have ever known and thrust into classes of kids from all over and if you don't keep up it's tough and you fail your BEP/BAC etc which means hard to find a job. From seeing a lot of these "Living the Dream" type programmes it always strikes me that parents of teenage children give no thought to what the child actually wants to do and that their lives are more important - how wrong some of them are. I speak negatively because even though my own two were fairly young when we came here,there were still tears and frustration which disappeared in time but with my son have re-surfaced again at Lycée because of the system and the attitude of some of the students now against the english in France which has obviously come from racist parents and here in Brittany there are very many racists.

 

[Deby]

Martin,

I was about to add - perhaps some of those more experienced members of the Forum who have put their children through the secondary education system here inFrance could give you some good advice/pointers. eg. Val2/Miki etc.

Saligo Bay hit the nail on the head really -  I see alot of bright young kids too who are struggling to find jobs/careers in France. A very good and well-educated friend of mine, (mid 20's) has just signed her contract (not well paid at all) for her new job - it took her two and half years to find a job in a big city and she is bi-lingual (French native with excellent English)!

I hope this discussion has not terrified you but really given you food for thought - at least you will have an idea of what may come.  My opinion is that life is very good for young children and their parents who want a slower pace/space and freedom, but for teenagers I'm not convinced, but it is just my opionion.

Deby

[Tourangelle]

I tend to agree with Val.  However, I would also say that having the brevet does not seem to count for much here.  It is not an equivalent to the GCSEs.  Also it is done a year early.

A forteen year old who moves here isn't necessarily going to spend their life here.  You never know, but what if it doesn't work out?  Or the child, perfectly legitimately does not want to stay in France as  an adult?  Living in Britain and having no GCSE's does not sound like a great position to be in.  I mean, if the child is not academic, then that is like having no qualifications at all, and if the child is academic then what?  They struggle though the French school system - and starting at 14 it would be a struggle and go to university here (not that that is a great option)?  Well if they manage that, fantastic, but if not, and they try to return to Britain, then no GCSE's could be a handicap. 

I think 14 is a difficult age to go into the French school system and missing out on getting any GCSEs could be prejudicial

Jane

[Miki]

[quote]Martin, I was about to add - perhaps some of those more experienced members of the Forum who have put their children through the secondary education system here inFrance could give you some good advi...[/quote]

I really would go along with Deby, SB, Val and Jane.

I don't think one should be too concerned about the kids at school through CM 1 & 2 etc, nor perhaps the early years at college, though college years probably depend entirely on the school itself, horror stories and equally "happy" stories abound. We unfortunately, have seen both sides of the coin at first hand.

The crucial matter is trying to get your child through Lycéee and into Superieur Education and through that as well, without doing all that, getting even a half decent job will be difficult and dare I say in many parts of the country, very difficult indeed.

Here in Brittany, as soon as the tourists part, the employment level rises and many will find themselves on the chomage until the following spring or even later in the year.

I have said it before but I think it is worth re-stating, getting a job after leaving education in England is far easier than here, by a long way. We have family and friends in both countries and we see the difference all the time.

Very few families we know, have had children leave school or higher education yet but those we know that have, the kids are either scratching around for work or on the dole. Only a couple we know have found, what might be classed as permanent or proper jobs.

It's tough for sure, the choice is for people to decide about them and their children but at least there are people here who can tell them how it is, "warts and all"  

[Martinemj]

thanks for all the replies to my question.

will give us much to mull over in next few months,

martin

[Brumble]

Oh my god!  What alot of horror stories!  Any useful tips for 10, 7 and 3 year olds?  My 10 year old has one year left here in the UK come next September as he is one of the eldest in his year due to the english system, his birthday falls in September.  I was hoping, although i know we'll have upset, that being the ages they are they will (fingers crossed) all cope reasonably well through their education.  Now i've read all these posts i'm a bit worried.  Is there alot of problems between the french and english children.  Its too late for us to change our minds as weve sold here, already had a house in Brittany, and are almost packed and ready to move, now a rush of panick has come over me.  I do hope i'm doing right by our children,  any HAPPY success stories on english children in France?  Aaaaah

[Teamedup]

The good news, if your kids have higher than average intelligence and fit into the rigid system here, they will be absolutely fine.

[Jongleur]

We moved here 2 years ago with 2 boys, aged 10 & 7 and had a lot of concerns about how they would cope.

The eldest was held back a year by French standards, the admission year here is for all children with a birthday in the same calendar year. His birthday is in December so he would have been one of the youngest in his year, by holding him back he went to college the same September that he would have started secondary in the UK. We felt that this was advantageous for him so he and we were happy for this to happen.

We are convinced that the maximum age for introducing children to the french education system is 10, this should enable them to have a year at primary to get used to the differences of how things work and what is expected of them.

Although not excelling at college he often tells us how much he prefers things here to when we lived in the UK.

The youngest has taken to the french system like a duck to water and speaks without a trace of an accent, according to our French friends. The problem we have with him is that although he understands what he has said in French he often cannot translate this into English, particularly in cases of sayings, slang, etc.

Although I will not say it is easy on the children, or parents, I would say that those children coming into the primary system here will have a greater chance of success than those that go directly into secondary education.

 

Jongleur

[Brumble]

JONGLEUR

Well that has made me feel a bit better.  My eldest was 10 in September so in the French system i suppose would be starting college next year in France although here he would be in his last year at primary school so hopefully he will be kept back a year.  Are your children doing ok now?  Where abouts in france do you live?  I have heard that as the children get older there are problems between the english and french, do you find this?  I am a bit worried now actually, my move isn't going to be as exciting now until the children are settled in school, i was looking forward to it!  Never mind i shall just have to keep my fingers crossed.  I know there are a few english children where we are moving so there will be a few in school with them. 

Anymore reasonably happy stories to put my mind at ease a little would be greatly appreciated.

Cary

 

[Annhopkins]

Well you have another set of parents worried.  We are on the brink of moving, my husband is handing his notice in next week.  We have spent the last 3 years researching the move, waiting for the right opportunities and weighing up the pros and cons.  Education has been the most difficult.  Our children are 13 and 10, and yes they are exceptionally bright, I don't wish to blow their trumpets but it is a matter of fact.  We were hoping that being bi-lingual would be a benefit.  I work in education and to be honest our system is not as good as everyone makes out.  Exams are changing all the time, there is talk of introducing the Bac, or re-introducing 'O' levels, making maths and english options and not compulsary, and all this could be before our 13 year old reaches year 11, where will she be then, discipline is out of the window and PC runs the schools.  Don't get me wrong I am not saying that the French system is any better but surely it cannot be as bad as everyone here makes out. Is it just a case of being comfortable with what you know and not able or willing to embrace the changes. And what about the other benefits.  Talking to a French teacher in our village in France he says further education is still free, I have nieces who have just finished university with large debts.  We hope the children will find it easier to get on the property ladder when they are older.  And if they want to return to England when they are older, surely a French education would not hinder them.  I firmly believe that when my children are adults we will be far more intergrated into the EU than now and being european education will be a positive advantage. Am I completely wrong?

Believe it or not the opinions of this forum could mean the difference between moving or not.  Replies are gratefully received.

[SaligoBay]

I suppose in one sense tertiary education is "free" in France, but don't forget that while most students in England will have finished their degrees by about 21, most students in France are still plodding through theirs at 24.

There are means-tested bourses available, but the reality is that most students work their way through university.  Agreement is almost unanimous (from previous discussions here and elsewhere in real life) that university in France is a whole lot less fun than university in the UK.

[Russethouse]

I seem to remember mention of a frighteningly high drop out rate in the French system too, esp in the first year ?