Jooles Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Try as I might to stay away from the Education forum to prevent myself from getting too depressed - I was interested to spot an offer to provide GSCE education here in France that for once, was in my area! - but like the elusive Scarlet Pimpernel it seems to have disappeared. Okay, so it was an advert and you guy's don't approve of soliciting - but I do think it was worth a discussion. Many of us who come over here with our children, have not done so on a whim, nor, as some of you "long termers" seem to think, have we arrived wearing rose coloured glasses. It has been a long planned, long thought out (and in some cases painful) decision to quit old blighty, ones friends and family and set up here. We didn't buy but decided to rent first (just in case). We put money aside for extra lessons for the children and we are paying, (on top of school fees as they currently attend a Private Catholic school), for an extra 4 hours a week tuition for the children at the princely sum of 20 euros an hour. I hasten to add that the school has been great in letting the woman who gives these lessons, do so on school premises during their 'etude' hour. However, we are fully aware, as are the teaching staff, that our children may get into the Lycee but the chances of them going beyond is nonexistent. Decisions, decisions. As the nearest International school is miles away and boarding fees for two children are horrendous, we have to make the choice now to all return to the UK, or just the children, or take them out of school and put them independently through their GCSE's. I prefer this course as it means, they get to continue the educational path they want, and we get to stay in France. Another plus, as I see it, they will be able to take GCSE French and possibly pass with a better mark because they are using it on a daily basis ! And before I hear the "but you will be isolating them from their peers" - there is nothing to say that they can't continue to go to their football training, ballet classes, and youth clubs so they will still be mixing with their school friends, but also get the qualifications they want to go on to further education in the UK. I know I'm not alone in going this route, I have spoken to and corresponded with several other parents who, despite their disappointment at having to make the change, are all considering the same move (a couple of already have). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamedup Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Ah, you are wrong, if they get their BAC they can go to french university. Nothing non existant about it. They can keep plodding on to get their BAC for years and years too and then will just be taken into Uni. Then they will get chucked out if they don't pass the first years course, but they get two goes at that as they can resit that year too.I won't say anything about isolating your kids, considered it myself. I don't know how old your kids are, but would they be allowed at pre16 to be enrolled in a UK correspondance course whilst living in France as a resident, rather than using the CNED.The other thing is that even if you got them through their GCSE's what then? They have no value here in France at all. So then it would be a BAC or A Levels. Over 16 and you would be free to educate them where you wished. But watch out, you are now in the position of even if your children go back to the UK after they have done GCSE's here and do A levels there, they will not be eligible for grants and loans. One has to have three years full residence in the UK to qualify. So the first year, at least could be costly to yourselves and maybe the full course would be, I'm not sure how it works. If they did a BAC and then went back, there may be something from the french side though?And back to the person who was proposing lessons. When they first mentioned it, I asked some very basic and simple questions and I was sent packing. Told to do my homework? I could do the homework... but I think it would have reassured me if they had simply said that they were registered with at least some official french body, if not the several I had in mind, as they were proposing to work with children. Also, these extra hours. There is only so much that kids can take in per day. There is only so much learning that any of us can take in per day. I hope that you will tell me that the person who is working with them is actually going over their school work with them. It would seem to be the intelligent way of them having these extra lessons. But the extra stuff my son got was never his school work and the school(s) were quite against it too. Rose coloured specs.... well until you get here and one's kids are in the system I really don't know how you could have known about the system. You sound like you still don't know that much about it now and I understand that. It is a great learning curve for the parents too. It is so different and for me at least I never imagined it to be as it was. The nagging feeling that my grandmother who was born in the 1880's might have understood the system here better than me started when my youngest started in CP and never left me. Son was 15 when his then headmaster told me that his thesis had been about the Education Nationale and that the system was devised in the 1870's-1880's and really hasn't changed that much since. Eerything made a lot more sense to me though I do not approve.So yes, we long termers do believe that people come here with rose coloured specs. As the general idea given in the UK is that the french system is good, I really do not know how it could be otherwise for most people. What I would like is that I am not dismissed for what I suppose are taken as moaning old woman posts. I frankly would prefer to have nothing but good or average to say. I am sorry that you are finding it a struggle and worry. Knowing what I know now, I wish we had left France when my kids were 11, but I had been here 13 years then and 'I' still didn't know what it would be like, in spite of being very involved in school from day one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deby Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Jools,Sounds like a good compromise to me (home study). I am not there yet with my children as they are still very young. From what I know and hear from French College and Lycee I would be very concerned in your circumstances. You do not say how old your children are but I imagine they are in their teens. To put them into a French school and see them struggle would be very difficult. What do they wish to do? You obviously just want to give your children a good life and education and provide them with choices. I think you are halfway there.The lady which was advertising may see your post and contact you direct. She is providing a service but unfortunatley we all have to toe the line with advertising rules, it is a fine line as it is and has been discussed on many ocassions, but generally it is better for everyone that it is enforced otherwise this Forum would be lost with all the ads which people would place. DebyJools, I have sinced read TU's post and she obviously appears to be knowledgeable regarding the system that I, there is alot of good information contained therein. Also does anyone know if it is possible to do the BAC in English here in France? I mean when I studied in Holland, there will students who did the International Bacclaureate then in English - this would then be recognised in France n'est' pas (sp!). Also I think TU is not sneering or rubbing her hands in glee at all! I think you may have misin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jooles Posted January 25, 2005 Author Share Posted January 25, 2005 Dear TeamedUpPlease give some of us 'newies' a break - I obviously bow to your longevity here in France and your knowledge, but surely sharing it would be better than sneering and rubbing your hands together in glee as you suppose another of us 'bites the dust'These forums have been up and running for a while now, and I read plenty of them before we moved over. I had many sleepless nights as to whether or not we were doing the right thing, but we made our decision, and whether or not we go home in the 5 years (a statistic I read on one or other of these sites) we would like to be able to say that we gave it our best shot.I get the distinct impression you think I am doing my utmost to make my children's life has hard as possible. Not so. We were under no illusions that there would be difficulties in them settling and doing well at school - therefore we did think up a contingency plan if things didn't work out.Prior to the 'ad' on this forum. I had already found a teacher who lives here in France and in the next town to us and who is perfectly qualified (we did our checks) to put the kids through their GCSE's and AS exams. We discussed at length what would be best for the children and obviously the French system was not going to work for them.My two are quite happy at the prospect of returning to the UK, be it now or in the next few years. As far as the cost of their further education is concerned, I think that is a matter for us and not you.If the children were going to be educated in the French system, then there would have been a problem in taking them out of it, however, they are going to be taught privately outside the french educational system and therefore should not be a problem.To answer your question on the help (or extra work as you put it) which they are currently receiving- the lady in question is a (French) teaching assistant with the English department at the school and was recommended by the Directeur himself during our first meeting, I believe that was confirmation enough of the school's blessing.She has been teaching them the basics and helping with homework questions and any other queries they may have during that weeks work and checking their work. We meet often for her to give me updates. As I said in my original post, the work is done during periods which they do not have any lessons and is therefore, not exactly interfering with any of their work or giving any more to do. You are right in my not having a full understanding of the French Education system nor do I profess to, but then i kind of get the impression that I am not alone in that - and that includes some of you who have been here a long time. But I think if I had any doubts about removing them from the French system, these were dispelled when I met an English girl who has been here since the age of 13 (now in her late 20's), who said that as far as she was concerned, the BAC wasn't worth the paper it was written on.Whilst I only glanced at the 'ad' that was originally put on the forum, if they are teaching GCSE's what possible french body would they be registered with? I presume they are offering a British service to English speaking Nationals, and therefore would have English teaching credentials which can be checked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deby Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Jools,I do not believe that TU is sneering or rubbing her hands with glee I think she is trying to give you the benefit of her experiences.The problem with written text the tone cannot be heard or gauged and sometimes misinterpretations are made. So read it again with a friendlier tone in mind and you might see the difference. Honestly.Deby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaligoBay Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 <<But I think if I had any doubts about removing them from the French system, these were dispelled when I met an English girl who has been here since the age of 13 (now in her late 20's), who said that as far as she was concerned, the BAC wasn't worth the paper it was written on.>> Hello Jools, it looks to me like you and TU are saying (roughly) the same thing. The difference is you came to this conclusion very quickly because you were lucky enough to meet this English girl, and also to benefit from forums like this, which weren't around when TU's children were going through school.I can't imagine for a second she's rubbing her hands with glee about anything.Now, who asked about the BAC with English? The Lycée Joffre here in Montpellier is hoping to start one soon, if they haven't already. So it is possible, but you'd have to ask in your own area. It's not a BAC in English, it's a BAC with an English option, so on top of the normal work, there'll be quite a few extra hours a week doing English on the Oxford/Cambridge syllabus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miki Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 We have had this out on here recently, none of us so called long termers or those who have been here just a while but really have taken the time to find out what it is all about ever wish to rub noses or be gleeful at others errors. I can't think of anyone in that category who doesn't seriously want to offer help and what pleases us (I say us as I know some others will agree) is when others see that we have not been sneering or whatever. TU herself, has offered this forum exactly how she has found her many years here, not just in her kids education but in her, sometimes very hard, every day life. That's not sneering, that's giving people who want to listen, the bare facts...invaluable and above all... it's FREE. Take it or leave it, my advice is, take it and take the advice of many others on here, especially the ones that have been there, done.......etcOK, the Bac is not worth a lot on its own BUT it is all about adding years of learning on to that title. Without the Bac, just see what a young person can do here, its tough enough with a Bac plus 2 or 3 or as Cjb said earlier, it can be a struggle for some with 6 or more, so imagine just a Bac alone and that is what your friend meant. I am afraid she explained it to you, a little out of context. For ease of this post I have not mentioned about the many excellent BTS type courses, which are invaluable for many students, as well as the country of course !!I really do think you will find out within a few years, I am positive you will see what is being said now and when that day comes, I suspect you will be passing on the same info.....As the Duchess said, do read it again and this time please take it in the way it really was meant to be offered. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Well I may be wrong but I seem to remember that there is encouragement in the UK for more people to take the BAC in English here, its an international qualification n'est pas ?So I hope the girl Jools met was wrong. Maybe her comment stems from the fact that I think the Bac is the required qualification to get into Uni,( I could be wrong here!) which seems to mean that most people are able to go (with horrendous drop out rates) - and they are allowed 7 years to get their degree.One thing that puzzles me a little is the perception by some people that they move to France to give their children a 'better family life' I understand that parents want to see more of their children when they are young, but 'family life' for me means something that doesn't stop when they get to 16/18. If my children move away, so be it - but in moving with teenagers aren't you virtually guaranteeing that they will have to leave home in order to find a future ? That may be their choice in the UK but it wouldn't be a necessity.Thats not meant as a critism if thats your choice - more an observation - we are all different !I don't think TU is having a 'go' Jools, she had great problems getting the right help for her children (it simply wasn't available)and that is her major regret about living in France.AFAIK.As regards anyone working with children, I would expect that there are checks to be done, and can't imagine why anyone would not be forthcoming quickly with the information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jooles Posted January 25, 2005 Author Share Posted January 25, 2005 As I read it, TU was questioning everything we had done rather right down to getting the kids extra lessons at school ! I did not intend this post to start a slanging match, But as the general consensus is that TU was offering me advice, then I apologise. I just wanted to make a point that, outside of the School system, maybe there was another alternative for those of us with children of a slightly less integratable age.Obviously I would be as upset as the next person if and when my children fly the nest to either further their educations or careers, it will be in the full knowledge that wherever we are, is home. When living in the UK there is not guarantee that the University they would attend would be on the doorstep.On another note, it has been brought to my attention that the Lycee near to us is (if it hasn't already begun) starting an English Bac - apparently the Directeur is aware of the vast number of bilingual children in the area. Maybe there is some hope for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caroline 34 Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 We have done a lot of heart searching, and after doing a lot of homework, much of it on this forum, we have decided to return to the UK. We have been here for nearly 2 years, and had many wonderful times, and we have no regrets. But our son, aged 9, already down 2 years, is finding school very hard going. It will not be easy for him back in the UK either, but it will be easier for him to understand, and fit in. My daughter, 11, is in the 6e and doing very well here. She is keen to eventually go to University. The 3 year rule for qualification for 'grants' means she should do GCSE's there, and therefore she will have one year before she decides her subjects.Also, I did not appreciate when we first came out, the difficulty of supporting divorcing parents and other members of the family's illness from long distance. When we came, all was fine! So an english adventure is about to begin. The kids are now bilingual - almost! and have benefitted from the many opportunities here near Montpelier. There is no right or wrong path for families to follow, I would just like to echo those more experienced than I by recommending parents to find out as much as possible before making any decision, and to consider what is the best opportunity for their children's futures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamedup Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Please read my thread again. I understand why you don't understand the system here. I said that I didn't after thirteen years even as my eldest was going into college, so if I still didn't, why would most other people who haven't been through it and have only heard what is said in the UK about it. That you might see it throught rose coloured specs is what I did. Because I would never have been so ungenerous as to have imagined the reality. The only thing I criticised you for was not realising that once they get their BAC they can go to Uni. And a comment was that transferring kids to another form of education under 16 is not necessarily as easy as one might hope, you may need a medical certificate amoungst other things. -------------------------------------Ah, you are wrong, if they get their BAC they can go to french university. Nothing non existant about it. They can keep plodding on to get their BAC for years and years too and then will just be taken into Uni. Then they will get chucked out if they don't pass the first years course, but they get two goes at that as they can resit that year too.I won't say anything about isolating your kids, considered it myself. I don't know how old your kids are, but would they be allowed at pre16 to be enrolled in a UK correspondance course whilst living in France as a resident, rather than using the CNED.*****The other thing is that even if you got them through their GCSE's what then? They have no value here in France at all. So then it would be a BAC or A Levels. Over 16 and you would be free to educate them where you wished. But watch out, you are now in the position of even if your children go back to the UK after they have done GCSE's here and do A levels there, they will not be eligible for grants and loans. One has to have three years full residence in the UK to qualify. So the first year, at least could be costly to yourselves and maybe the full course would be, I'm not sure how it works. If they did a BAC and then went back, there may be something from the french side though?Going back needn't be as facile as one hopes either************And back to the person who was proposing lessons. When they first mentioned it, I asked some very basic and simple questions and I was sent packing. Told to do my homework? I could do the homework... but I think it would have reassured me if they had simply said that they were registered with at least some official french body, if not the several I had in mind, as they were proposing to work with children. ******Also, these extra hours. There is only so much that kids can take in per day. There is only so much learning that any of us can take in per day. I hope that you will tell me that the person who is working with them is actually going over their school work with them. It would seem to be the intelligent way of them having these extra lessons. But the extra stuff my son got was never his school work and the school(s) were quite against it too.This was a question about the extra hours******Rose coloured specs.... well until you get here and one's kids are in the system I really don't know how you could have known about the system. You sound like you still don't know that much about it now and I understand that. It is a great learning curve for the parents too. It is so different and for me at least I never imagined it to be as it was. The nagging feeling that my grandmother who was born in the 1880's might have understood the system here better than me started when my youngest started in CP and never left me. Son was 15 when his then headmaster told me that his thesis had been about the Education Nationale and that the system was devised in the 1870's-1880's and really hasn't changed that much since. Eerything made a lot more sense to me though I do not approve.So yes, we long termers do believe that people come here with rose coloured specs. As the general idea given in the UK is that the french system is good, I really do not know how it could be otherwise for most people. What I would like is that I am not dismissed for what I suppose are taken as moaning old woman posts. I frankly would prefer to have nothing but good or average to say. I am sorry that you are finding it a struggle and worry. Knowing what I know now, I wish we had left France when my kids were 11, but I had been here 13 years then and 'I' still didn't know what it would be like, in spite of being very involved in school from day one. ---------------------------------So if you prefer to think of me as a grumpy old woman well who is having a go, well that is up to you. That was never my intention, I really wish I had great tidings of great joy. ps just read about uni on your last thread. Once someone has a bac, they just about go and queue up and get into uni, the system there is completely different too. Would depend on the course ofcourse and that would mean I'd be typing pages about other preparatory courses etc. Say to be a med student, well our local uni take in a thousand a year. They pass 80. One can only resit that first year once and then you are out. Of the 80 passed about 20% pass at the end of doing just one year. Most failed students go onto other para medical studies, sometimes including prep courses before they can get into them too. They become say a physiotherapist when they are rather 'old' when they end up going down this path. pps I'm pleased that the person helping with the french is doing it intelligently, this really is not always the case. And my son began to detest anything other than school work, he just felt like having twice as much to do as everyone else was simply cruel punishment. And that was when he was in college privé. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tourangelle Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 An English bac? That sounds nice. I hope I'm wrong and it is something great, but I think it is probably one of two things. Either English langue de complément where they just have extra hours of English, or a classe Européenne, where they do one other subject in a modern European langue. Often it is history and geography, because they all have to do that right up to the bac. And it is not all the classes, only an hour or so in the week. It is for the French kids, so obviously the teacher, who doesn't necessarily speak the language brilliantly goes really slowly. Perhaps it is the international baccalauréat, that would be great for you if it wasAlso, sorry to be pedantic, but it is the baccalauréat, therefore bac, its not an abreviation BAC Jane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floodfamilyagain Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Hi It is the international bac that Jooles is talking about.I don't know a great deal about it but I know that the head of the Lycee ( who is quite forward thinking apparently) saw the increasing number of english families moving into this area and could see within the next few years this would bring with it an increase in bilingual 'lyceans' so it would be beneficial to both parties to have it introduced.Natalie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Izz. Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 The international bac.is unfortunately taught in french and the foreign language has more weight than in other bacs. That is the difference. Sorry for the sad news. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Izz. Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 I would like if I may, to talk about my experience of the french system. I am a French national and was educated until 18 in France. Although I was identified as a successful student for most of my education here, I found it was not geared for ALL children, as very elitist and rigid in the way subjects were taught... not making allowances for anything and basically no respect for human beings. I felt it was unjust.Anyway, I made it to my bac B, social economics+english+german+latin. In the summer following my exams I was in charge of taking 25 children and youth leaders to England for an international camp organised by the Woodcraft organisation. On my return to France I decided to go and live in GB for a while...stayed twenty years (but it would have been less had I not married there!). My now ex.husband had no wish to move to France...Two years ago we moved here with my partner and my two children aged 15 and 5. My son was enrolled at a private catholic school in the area, and despite many promises from the headteacher, no help was given.The school decided to remove Ben from English lessons as he was found disruptive by his teacher ( no wonder, as he was learning what he had known for several years by then, and he said that he kept quiet but when asked his opinion on vocab. He sometimes contradicted the teacher who did not appreciate...)These lessons were to be replaced by "do it yourself French" and the program he had to access had to be authorized by staff but Ben could hardly find staff to help as they were too busy elsewhere and most of this precious time was wasted looking for a teacher to enable him to study on that program.We decided to contact another school, a state one this time as we had enough of the catholic school. The new school was much better in all ways but feeling he was not getting anywhere Ben returned to England in April last year, where he lives with his father. I was so destroyed that my son had been failed by the French system but couldn't do anything to improve it.I was thinking about taking the CAPES (French equivalent of PGCE), but frankly do not want to be associated with the establishment and therefore will not sit it, as I cannot condone a system that does not look at children, but league tables. That is why I am opening a school for English children, as there is no reason why children cant study the GB national curriculum here (with correct legal status, and suitably qualified teachers of course!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 So bearing in mind that this is a no advertising site and a question previously posed, what sort of 'red tape' do you have to go through to set up such a school ?Are you planing to cater for up to 16 year olds or up to 18 year olds ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cjb Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 In my mind the CAPES is far from being an equivalent of the PGCE. The PGCE is based upon teacher training whilst the CAPES is a competitive exam based upon knowledge and exam technique. The former produces teachers the latter produces functionnaires!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Izz. Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 To reply to your message i can only agree that the difference between French and English qualifications are the ones quoted by you . So what difference does it make to the qualification? You seem to be lost within French bureaucracy ! If you are a qualified teacher in GB, you have been approved by the government to teach, full stop. Red tape is something you have to overcome and an English school is no threat to the French system . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Izz. Posted January 26, 2005 Share Posted January 26, 2005 Russethouse personwhat do you mean by "red tape" ? With the following definition of nouns expressing excessive bureaucracy, or adherence to formalities I am prepared to go through that as i feel so strong about the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted January 26, 2005 Share Posted January 26, 2005 What I mean is how difficult is it to set up a private school in France correctly?In the Uk in the child care sector, many people have to have police checks for instance, whats the situation in France? ( I guess with the French love of bureaucracy not any old Tom, Dick or Harry can 'just' open a school).In fact, is it an actual physical school you have in mind or more of an agency arrangement?Have you been a teacher ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Izz. Posted January 26, 2005 Share Posted January 26, 2005 Hi Gay,Setting up a private school in France is possible once you get past the red-tape! Seriously though, yes it is possible! I can't go into all the details at the moment, for obvious reasons.Unlike the U.K. system, police checks are not mandatory. However, I have had a check done recently in conjunction with official translation work.Yes, it is to be a "real" secondary school.Finally, yes, I am a U.K. qualified teacher with management experience, and have taught the N.C. for all of my career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tourangelle Posted January 26, 2005 Share Posted January 26, 2005 CJB said the CAPES is a competitive exam and the PGCE isn't. Well that is what it might look like initially, but in fact even if you pass the CAPES you haven't actually 'got' it as such until you do the year of teacher training. This involves about six hours spent teaching a week, in a school where you are assigned a mentor, and the rest of the time spent in the IUFM being trained. There are several inspections. It is not like you do the exam and then are expected to know how to do the job Jane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cjb Posted January 26, 2005 Share Posted January 26, 2005 O.K, I stand corrected, but 6 hours a week isn't much time in the classroom. The PGCE includes at least 2 long term teaching practices and an initial observation period. There are some things that can be learnt outside of the classroom, but most of what's worth knowing will be learnt from being thrown in at the deep end and being responsible for your own class. Having a class one day a week does not teach you how to build a rapport with your students - an essential ingredient for successful teachers, nor does it give you an insight into the realities of the job on a day in day out basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaligoBay Posted January 26, 2005 Share Posted January 26, 2005 But it might teach you how to spell rapport? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cjb Posted January 26, 2005 Share Posted January 26, 2005 You must be getting tired SB, I can't see any spelling mistake!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.