What do the French think?

[chicfille]

Just wondering what French parents think of the French education system.

I ask because I have a French friend living in the UK who is very pleased with the education her 6-year-old is receiving at his primary school, citing the openness of the teachers, the variety of activities they do, the way they handle children of varying abilities, the feeling of community. Her only gripe is the huge differences between schools that you don't see in France, at primary level at least.

Is it a case of "it was good enough for me...", do they genuinely like and support it, or do they question the point of rote-learning, endless tests and rankings and some of the more questionable methods employed?

[SaligoBay]

The Education Nationale is often described as a mammouth.

Parents do complain bitterly about teachers not being replaced when they're absent (very common).   It also seems to be generally accepted that standards of discipline are falling.  In fact, overall the message is pretty much the same as what I hear from the UK! 

I think it would be hard for most French people to comment on rote-learning, because they're not aware that it could be any different.

[Richardbk]

do they question the point of rote-learning, endless tests and rankings and some of the more questionable methods employed?

Most of the french population seldom question anything, whether it is the education system,  the way a doctor talks at you, or even when the apres vente staff send you packing. The system has taught them to accept things and not to question, so as Saligobay says they do not know any different.

regs

Richard

[Ormx]

Most condescending generalizations I've ever heard. Do you people actually KNOW any French people or is it all based on what you read in the English News? The French questioned the Bush war on Iraq (Blair followed the big superpower like a sheep).

[SaligoBay]

Do you people actually KNOW any French people

Yes, why do you ask?   If you actually talk to ordinary, everyday French people living ordinary, everyday French lives, they have exactly the same gripes about the education system as anywhere else, and many people are quite unhappy with it.   At the same time, the cultural ethos at large doesn't allow for revolutionary changes - they only did that once, and are still basking in the reflected glory!!!

[Teamedup]

I watched 'Irene' the other afternoon, really enjoyed it. One of her suitors made several comments about education and she cut him short saying that she had no intention of discussing major reforms in the Education Nationale.

Paradox's here. People do complain and a lot about school and many aspects of it. Then they also complain that standards are dropping, that children must have homework etc etc.

So what do they think, I'm not sure. And that is why it isn't changed, perhaps? No one knows what they want it changed to. And they don't really trust the politicians to make good and decent changes ......... and for all I would love radical reforms, I don't trust the politicians either.

 

[Ormx]

I think complaining about one's own system is different from foreigners complaining about it (with undertones of "it's much better in the UK). Also French people may complain about their education system but do they really say the kind of things you are saying about the French race in general i.e. lack of ability to think for themselves, etc. ?

[SaligoBay]

one's own system

But we ARE talking about what French people think of the French system!!  And anyway, for those of us paying French tax and with children going through the French system, do we have no right at all to comment on what we're getting for our money?   If not, it means we're some sort of second-class citizens with no right to free speech.  I think not!!

with undertones of "it's much better in the UK"

That inference is entirely your own, Ormx!

do they really say the kind of things you are saying about the French race in general i.e. lack of ability to think for themselves, etc. ?

As I'm sure you know, it's not an issue about being French as such.  Most French people think the way they're taught, as do British people, Australian people, Bangladeshi people, Israeli people, Turkmenistani people.......   and while it's easy to discuss differences in tangible things like food or architecture, different ways-of-thinking have to be experienced.   There are many things about France that my non-French friends just don't understand, and many things about Britain that my French friends don't understand.

Are you a troll visiting from TotalFrance, btw??   

  

 

[Ormx]

No to your last question.

I  do enjoy some of the useful info here, but hate when the education system is brought up as the same few people continue to complain about it. I believe the system is as good as the Irish one with some advantages, and far superior to the British one (many reasons why, that is another thread). Of course it has some bad points (learning by rote is not always bad though) but so do all. What upsets me is that people reading these posts are put off coming to France. I have received several private messages from people who can't be bothered posting (expecting to be told to stay away, their children will be better off with English qualifications) and need some info on schooling and some positive input. I'm glad I didn't find this forum until after I moved here!!

Many French people actually believe the system is good, and graduated, and got jobs and are able to think for themselves. These are the people I know.

[Deby]

Having worked for a multi-national company in France and in Germany.  It has to be said, that the French do struggle to own problems, think for themselves and offer opinions - something which is not encouraged in the education system and therefore progresses to the workplace.

Those are my experiences of French working life and French education.

Having said that I do have some French friends who do not fit the mould, but believe me it is because they have been exposed to other cultures in one way or another.

This is my opinion based on my experiences.

Deby

[SaligoBay]

Thank you for those wise words, Deby! 

Yes, Ormx, graduates (and non-graduates) who have travelled a bit and seen a bit of the world tend to have more open minds, that's the same in every country.  

If your children are going through primaire and collège and lycée with no problems at all, then that's nice.   Isn't that just what we all want for our children, irrespective of what country we're in?   But if they had a problem with school, would you not try to sort it out?   Or would you think you had no right as a "foreigner"?    Dangerously Front National, that sort of talk, and I'm very glad that my French friends don't think like you!

Anyway, my reply to chicfille remains as it did.  Yes, of course French people have "issues" with the education system.   Why wouldn't they?   The same problems exist here as anywhere else, it's still Planet Earth, you know!  

[chicfille]

A really interesting debate. My own research with French friends, sparked by my French friend in the UK, has yielded few strong opinions on the system, favourable or otherwise. It seems to be pretty much accepted as it is, maybe because not a lot has changed since they went through it themselves? So as SB says, perhaps they don't know what might be changed for the better, or how to go about it. The lack of alternatives (the tiny smattering of truly independent schools aside) means parents haven't got anything to compare it with and and couldn't vote with their feet even if they wanted to.

On the subject of the forum putting people off moving, I felt that my understanding of the system was far deeper, and therefore better, for reading about other people's experiences, especially the negative ones. There are so many people out there singing the praises of the French system (TV programmes, the press, as well as the internet) that there is a need for forums like this one where people can tell it like it is for them. Parents have different expectations of schooling for their children and the French system educates children in a different way - a way which will suit some and not others. This has got to be information worth sharing, surely.

[Richardbk]

[quote]Most condescending generalizations I've ever heard. Do you people actually KNOW any French people or is it all based on what you read in the English News? The French questioned the Bush war on Iraq (B...[/quote]

been here 11 years. Working for an international organisation and now here in the SW building aircraft. I interview and hire people(professionals) manage international projects(european) We hire from all over Europe including France. There are strengths in the French system such as formal processing and deductive analysis, but in terms of innovation and lateral thinking there are other nationalities that are generally much better. A mixed international team can be very effective using the strengths of people and their educational background. These are of course perhaps generalities but are well documented in various cultural studies research that are used by many international business use to train staff.

regs

Richard

[Deby]

A mixed international team can be very effective using the strengths of people and their educational background. These are of course perhaps generalities but are well documented in various cultural studies research that are used by many international business use to train staff.

Such a true statement,

Heard the one about

The idea of heaven is:

A French cook, An Italian Lover and English Policemen and a German Mechanic.

The idea of hell  is:

An English cook, A French Policeman, A German Lover and an Italian Mechanic!

I know it is a joke but there is something subtle in there!

Deby

[opas]

Well I found this site long before we came to france, I read everything and anything on it , I also thought that some long term ex pats were moaning cranks as far as the Education system was concerned!  18 months down the line I will now back up Teamed Up . The monotonous spellings that come home every day for a week (40, some of which I admit I don`t know the meaning of and Mr O couldn`t spell them if his life depended on it) The boring `poems` and teachers who do not accept that all children are diferent and some more so than others!

I am going to the UK in a few weeks for a short visit ,whilst there I will try to track down a French student who I worked with, she was training to be a teacher, and hope to get her oppinion now that we have  both seen the other side of the coin of education.

the Mums who I chat to also do not like the teachers or the homework,but as SB says , they don`t have any alternative.

Mrs O .

[Mistral]

I can't really comment on whether French people have the same worries about the system as Brits because I don't know enough Brits with children in schooling to comment and those I know work in schools.

As SB says, the main worries for french parents seem to be teachers not being replaced and "falling standards". As other people have said, they don't seem to be particularly worried about teaching techniques or whatever but I think that is more because when you are used to something being done a certain way, you think that's the only way it should be done and can't imagine that anybody does it differently. If I taught English the way it was done 20 or 30 years ago parents would be happier, As it is I have to defend the fact I don't ask my pupils to learn the dialogues by heart or teach them the phonetic alphabet

No, French parents aren't bothered by rote learning and would be more worried if children didn't have things to memorise (I have heard enough conversations where parents try to prove that their child's teacher is superior by listing the amount of homework/things to learn every night) just as british parents don't necessarily question some of the basic teaching techniques used there.

[bigjimbishop]

If you don't like the system then educate at home.

that's the experience of 95,000 children in UK

My boy is 3 and at maternelle.

Already he has been reduced to a load of coloured dots in a school report.

His school is by and large very good but I'm taking him out of the system when he is 6 (unless he complains bitterly) to avoid rote and homework.

The school day is long and to fill home time with more school work seems obscene to me.

I'd love to meet some french home educators

if you know any, pass them on

Jim

[Teamedup]

It isn't that easy to even start to educate at home in France. I realise that it isn't impossible, but one needs several things to do this.  Including permission from the Inspection and a medical certificate and I can't remember what else. It wouldn't have been easy for us to do.

Also the CNED were not helpful either, what with that and the rest and everyone who should sign for us to do it being very much against it, we didn't do it.