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Why does it take so long?


SaligoBay

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Because the studies are free (minimal frais de scolarité aside) however long you've been studying.

My bro-in-law is 25 and has just finished his masters degree in a humanities subject. It took until now because he started off in science, switched to another science course after 2 years and after a year of that finally fixed on humanities.

Ditto for those that fail a year - they can re-register for the same year of a course as many times as they like, so it can take in infinite amount of time just to get a licence.

In the UK you can switch courses up to 1 year and 1 term into your undergraduate course (I believe, at least that's how it used to be). After that you're stuck with it unless you can self-fund. If you fail a year you're kicked out. And anything beyond a first degree has to be paid for oneself or other sources of funding found.

 

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I agree, it is so easy here to just repeat years. But taking the second part of SB's question, I have no idea. I mean people do university degrees and then can't get a job, and what employers seem to want is either a BTS, which is quite low level, but in something very specific, so bac+2, or loads more years, more like bac+5. I think high unemployment leads people to do more and more qualifications. Plus, the other day on the radio, I think it was France Culture, my OH was listening, I was only half paying attention, they were saying that parents now see the unis as a direct route to the ANPE, and also that foreign degrees in particular British ones and more valued. I assume that is if you are French and you manage to get a degree in the UK, and presumably also if you have very rich parents who can pay for it. But why don't lots of British students repeat the year, I think it is because they just get given a third! Then they could come to France and nobody will know what that means anyway. I don't know whether anybody has actually done this but it would be useful advice for university career centres to give out.
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I studied at a German university as part of the erasmus programme and I felt like a baby compared to many of the other students collecting their scheine year after year.

what employers seem to want is either a BTS, which is quite low level, but in something very specific, so bac+2, or loads more years, more like bac+5

Our careers adviser always says that you have to count a further two years of training after leaving "études generales" (be it Bac G, Deug, licence ...) What she means (I think) is that studying, even to university level, remains very general, so to be employable afterwards, you need to specialise

But why don't lots of British students repeat the year

Because the drop out/failure rate in the UK is much lower than the French one. My husband once said that the british have UCCA (as it was then) and the french have the first year.

My sister in law, failed her first year, retook, failed a second time, changed her subject, failed again and finally left university after 3 years and nothing to show for it. I have friends who start putting money aside to pay for their kids' studies when they are still in primary school and others who are still paying for "children" in their mid to late twenties

 

 

 

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Not so sure about degrees from the UK being valued in France. My wife (who's french) has a 2:1 in English and Business Studies from an British University but was told that this was not even the equivalent of a licence and that she would have to complete several modules in order to bring it up to this level!! 

Haven't got round to posting for a while, but then again this little one keeps me pretty busy!

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Not so sure about degrees from the UK being valued in France. My wife (who's french) has a 2:1 in English and Business Studies from an British University but was told that this was not even the equivalent of a licence and that she would have to complete several modules in order to bring it up to this level!! 

This sounds to me like unfounded French arrogance. There is supposed to be parity of standards between countries at graduate level. Moreover, this does not explain the increasing numbers of French and German students in British universities.

One reason for the younger graduation age in British universities is the level of learning support students receive from their institutions as demonstrated by class sizes, tutor approachability, learning resources. The great majority of students complete their courses in the minimum time feasible. When I taught in a UK university business school it was axiomatic that we - staff and students - were all members of a single academic community and lecturers were there to help students learn. Even when efficiency-driven policies drove up student staff ratios no student seeking individual help was ever turned away.

My understanding of French universities is that they are rather soulless places where students are anonymous. They are also of lower status than grandes ecoles.

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The strange thing is that I've got a BA (Hons) in Politics and History and a PGCE which they were willing to accept as the equivalent of BAC +5, although, this still doesn't entitle me to teach within the french system.

Despite this I found work at an International School which pays me far more than I would have received within the French State System and provides me with an ample excuse each time a french friend reminds me that I'm simply teaching the children of the "Rich invading masses!!"

Voila! C'est la vie!!

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The point about "keeping them off the unemployment stats" is a good one. European govts have been doing it for years, and this is, of course, the reason why the UK has progressively become so keen to have just about everyone gain a degree, no matter how useless the qualification might be. In addition, the newly-graduated will have debts of around £20,000 that should serve to keep them passively on the treadmill for a good few years. I think that I shall be very wary about encouraging my daughters in the direction of a degree when / if they reach that particular cross roads.
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[quote]The point about "keeping them off the unemployment stats" is a good one. European govts have been doing it for years, and this is, of course, the reason why the UK has progressively become so keen to ...[/quote]

I think the UK wants everyone to get degrees because it has a shortage of skilled labour, not because the students would otherwise be on the dole (they wouldn't be). Though I do think there should be more emphasis on vocational and 2-year courses for those not best suited to the academic degree route.

France already has 25% youth unemployment. Imagine how high the figure would be if people did not fart about at lycee/university until they were 25. As for finishing at 28 in Germany - what on earth do they DO all that time?? Does anyone know?

Degree debts keeping people passively on the treadmill? Surely the whole point of going to University is to open your mind and learn not to be passive (and have 3 years of personal development before you even have to get on the treadmill). Why is expanding your life choices for 3 years and then paying back a debt any worse than joining the treadmill at 18?

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[quote]The strange thing is that I've got a BA (Hons) in Politics and History and a PGCE which they were willing to accept as the equivalent of BAC +5, although, this still doesn't entitle me to teach within...[/quote]

I generally found that people had no problem accepting my qualifications when they wanted me for a job, but if I wanted to do something, then they tended try to round down! And I don't think that the issue is being qualified or not to be a teacher, it is about whether you are a civil servant, for which here, as in the UK, you have to take exams.
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[quote]I generally found that people had no problem accepting my qualifications when they wanted me for a job, but if I wanted to do something, then they tended try to round down! And I don't think that the...[/quote]

If you look into this you'll find that there is a reciprocal agreement amongst EU members which should entitle me to teach within the french system.

As far as I'm concerned it's all water under the bridge, but the UK gets called un-European for refusing to sign up to certain EU directives whilst France willingly signs and then refuses to abide by such laws!!

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I have looked into it, but I think you'll still find that the problem is with French teachers being civil servants. EU legislation doesn't allow civil servants to transfer to other civil services of other member states. A PGCE, and I have asked the ministry of education here, is recognised as bac + 4. So the qualification is recognised to an extent, but here it takes at least a degree plus 2 more years to become a teacher. Unfortunately it is just part of the deal of moving to France.
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[quote]I have looked into it, but I think you'll still find that the problem is with French teachers being civil servants. EU legislation doesn't allow civil servants to transfer to other civil services of ...[/quote]

The British Council beg to differ, but as I've said it's all water under the bridge. My attempts at integration into the system were thwarted by a protectionist policy that required me to spend 2 years retraining (Sorry 1 year, as the CAPES bears no relevance to teaching ability). Something that I could ill-afford to do. I have no problems with this until people remind me that I'm just another Anglo-Saxon who has no desire to integrate into the system!!

International schools tend to be viewed as inward-looking Anglo-Saxon creations, but with time I'm starting to believe that it may just be the french system that is the most inward looking of all with an innate fear of change!!

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The CAPES is a two year qualification. The first year may have little to do with teaching ability, but it is a more open system in that you don't have to have a specific degree to take it, and the second year is the practical year, which can also be failed, so it is not like being good at the subject is enough. I don't think not wanting to do it is in anyway a failure to integrate, it is a totally depressing system, where many people who would potentially be good teachers fall at the first hurdle. People take it again and again and waste years trying to get the first year, which is very sad.
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"And I don't think that the issue is being qualified or not to be a teacher, it is about whether you are a civil servant, for which here, as in the UK, you have to take exams."

Maybe I'm missing something here, but surely a UK trained teacher, even with fluent written and spoken French, and years of experience cannot expect to become a teacher in a French school without some sort of retraining? Surely an English trained lawyer cannot practice French law without a conversion exam? It makes sense.

In Ireland, primary school teachers with degrees from outside the republic have to do an Irish exam (i.e. the language) to become a permanent teacher. They do get about 5 years to do it, but the principle is the same. The curriculum and ethos is different according to each European country and this surely needs to be taken into account.

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