Debra Posted March 7, 2006 Share Posted March 7, 2006 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamedup Posted March 7, 2006 Share Posted March 7, 2006 The thing that strikes me about this is that is has become an insular debate. As if ALL french people are happy with the education system, they aren't. Even some professionals are not happy with it. Those high flyers, well good for them, I mean that. And the low flyers? What prospects for them. I know too many kids who have never reached anywhere near their potential and are unlikely too unless something gets shaken up or gives. And not all these kids are from working class families, some are from families that are rather aise. ps I know that the majority of people's kids on this board will be high flyers ofcourse, because that is what I am always told, that for the majority, all is always well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathyC Posted March 7, 2006 Share Posted March 7, 2006 Debra I'm sorry you didn't like the word "produced" and perhaps it wasn't the best choice. What I was trying to describe was that the end result of the education system is the people that have gone through it and the society that they create. The point I was trying to make was that I assume that people who are coming to live in France like the French, their way of life and their culture and prefer them to their own. If not, why come? If you changed the French education system (perhaps with a magic wand) you would end up changing the whole life of the country and the culture and presumably the reasons for wanting to come to live here. You cannot change such a major part of a nation's identity without it affecting other areas.These things are all bound together and interconnected. Even if the British could change the French education system to be more to their liking, what right have they to do so? The fact that we are all in Europe now is beside the point and I find the idea of a dull homogenised European identity quite depressing. We are guests in another country and I want to try to avoid the mistakes that many people coming to live in the UK make.Teamed UpWhat makes you think that "low flyers " in the UK are any better served? Have you any idea how many young people leave British schools functionally illiterate and innumerate and with little knowledge of the world around them? If you were to work with these young people (I'm assuming that you don't) you might not be so sure that the British system is so wonderful. Even for the high flyers things are not so good. Perhaps you missed the recent report from university admissions tutors that "the reputation of higher education is being put at risk by falling standards in literacy, numeracy and study skills among school leavers. They say that the 'reduced teachability' of new undergraduates means that increasingly universities are losing valuable time in providing remedial courses in subject knowledge and study skills such as writing essays. School pupils are being 'spoon fed' to pass exams instead of being encouraged to develop knowledge and understanding. As a result they arrive at university expecting to be told the answers."I am no expert on the French education system, but I feel that you would have to be more confident of our own system than I am, to suggest that another country's system should be changed to being more like ours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debra Posted March 7, 2006 Share Posted March 7, 2006 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamedup Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 Ofcourse there will always be kids leaving school ill equipped for the world. The big big difference is the easy availablity of courses and retraining in the UK. It is there and it is used. There simply is not the same availability for adult learning in France and it is not part of french culture to do it either. I only know of one person who went back to Uni to retrain in France. One, that is it. (I do know of bright kids in France though that are still trying to find a course that suits and still studying for a degree at the age of 24/25 as they keep starting courses and don't like it or whatever. They have never worked, so are not mature students, just eternal students and lucky them that their parents can afford to continue paying for this.) Over the years many of the people I know in the UK, from their twenties onwards have taken advantage of this availablilty of adult education. Often changing their careers completely. And they have had jobs first, sometimes decent jobs, often with salaries that are perfectly fine too. Whereas getting a job, never mind a decent one in France as a kid with few qualifications is nigh on impossible, let alone a half decent salary to go with it. And my son has done the last three years in the UK system, so I actually know something about both systems. According to him it is like night and day. He had real problems adapting to and trusting these teachers that were interested and cared, it had never happened before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debra Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suze01 Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 [quote user="Debra"]Do they not have any adult education in France, then? [/quote]Yes, they do have adult education. It comes under the banner GRETA and covers many subjects. [url=http://www.education.gouv.fr/fp/greta.htm]This[/url] is the website with all the information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Riff-Raff Element Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 jond wrote: Most people (as Viva says) are perfectly happy with education in France.Phew! Sounding better and better -perhaps I can find some of those tinted specs and not worry too muchabout it after all!I really can't make youout. You ask for opinions from people with children already in thesystem, someone tells you that for most children everything works justfine and you respond by telling them they are viewing the world throughtinted specs! It is almost as if you are determined that hideousproblems are going to exist and you will keep scratching awayuntil you find what you want. I can make up a few failure stories ifthat would make you feel better.Teamed Up's son wasfailed by the system and there is no denying that, from what she hassaid, he and his family got extremely shabby treatment, and this is asituation that must be changed as he will not be the last child to havethese difficulties.However, that does not change the fact the for most children the system is perfectly satisfactory. And (if I might take my specs off for a moment - ma vie en rosegets tiresome at times), you are not singlehandedly going to rescue thesystem from itself and your complaints (if any) may or may not be takenseriously depending upon the individual teacher concerned and whetheror not you can get other parents involved (it might come as a surprise,but not all parents of children in French schools are passive sheep,it's just that they really haven't got a lot to complain about).[H] I'll go and m' specs back on - looks like a nice day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathyC Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 As I work in adult advice and guidance I know a fair bit about retraining and lifelong learning. The opportunities can be there, but only if you are comfortably off or are on means tested benefits. There is no free education after the age of 19. Even if it were available to everyone, it would hardly justify a poor education at lower ages.I live in the south-east and the vast majority of jobs here are at minimum wage for poorly qualified school leavers and even for those better qualified. Modern Apprenticeships are largely a joke (when available) and are a more dishonest name for the now discredited Youth Opportunities Programme. I don't expect it's much better in most parts of France but it can hardly be worst.Like you, Debra, I have not yet moved to France. You take my words very literally - I still think that I will be a "guest " in somebody else's country, however much I come to feel at home there. It is a question of fact rather than of feeling. I have not heard of anyone on these boards planning to take out French nationality. I hope that you are right about current changes in the UK education system but there is still a great deal of propaganda being put out about improvements and I will not hold my breath until I see the results. If the French want to change their education system, fine, but it is not the job of incomers to do it. As far as your ideas of an homogenised Europe are concerned, try putting that to the average French person and see how far it gets you. Any dilution of French language, culture or lifestyle would be fought tooth and nail as the recent referendum indicated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaligoBay Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 [quote user="KathyC"] I still think that I will be a "guest " in somebody else's country, however much I come to feel at home there. [/quote]A delightful view, Kathy! Britain's ethnic groups (or whatever the PC term is these days) will be pleased to know that they're so welcome in Britain. Le Pen (if he cares at all) would be pleased to know that he has some British support in the view that France's 10% Muslim population are just "guests", so they shouldn't bother complaining.I'm glad my French friends and neighbours are more open-minded and welcoming than that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaligoBay Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 [quote user="KathyC"]Like you, Debra, I have not yet moved to France. [/quote]In which case, Kathy, with all due respect, you probably don't know THAT much about it.France is populated by humans, and they have exactly the same problems as the rest of us. And yes, sometimes they are worse. You don't know about those things because the French press isn't like the UK press, and it's actually much harder to find information about things like illiteracy, because they don't go in for "we are the worst in the world" type headlines, even on the occasions where they are. ALL the issues you have with the UK exist here too. Why wouldn't they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaligoBay Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 Completely by chance, while reading a Muslim debate on the anti-foulard law, I came across this....L’école est elle-même traversée par des problèmes nombreux et profonds (classes surchargées, manque de personnels et multiplication des statuts précaires, manque de soutien pour les élèves en échec ou en difficulté...), This CLEARLY doesn't apply to ALL schools, but it's a general message that gets drip-fed to you once you're "in the system". Think of the decades of drip-feeding you've had on British culture. It's not anti-France or anything else, it's just life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathyC Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 I object strongly to being branded as a racist when you have twisted my words to make me seem that. I can't see what you object to in my use of the word "guest" as I see that as someone who is welcomed and treated well. Isn't this how you treat guests in your house? Most ethnic minorities in the UK are already British citizens or will want to and be able to become so.The Muslim minority in France are French or are able to become so. The British minority in France don't seem to have any interest in becoming French citizens and don't see themselves as emigrating to the country. That means they are guests and have certain responsibilities.I have not been commenting on the French education system and have said that I am not that knowledgeable about it. What I do know about is the English system, having been involved in or around it for my whole working life of over 30 years. I have been a student, mature student, parent, teacher, lecturer, careers adviser and adult advice worker (not all at the same time!) throughout that time and this has been in many areas of the UK. I think that this gives me the right to be be critical of the UK system and to be very cautious of comparing any country's education critically with our own. Many people have been able to engineeer a fairly good education for their children in the UK; either because they are able to work the system or have the resources to do so. There is nothing wrong with this (obviously a parent has to do the best they can for their child) but it does mean that many people have not seen the British system at its average and worst. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debra Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debra Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Riff-Raff Element Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 "I think you need to relax a bit."Good Lord - No one's ever said that to me before, usually the opposite("so laid back could be mistaken for dead" was a description I onceheard), still if you think it would help....[|-)]I've re-read your post and I still can't see how it can be read asanything other than a rather snide dig. Still, if it was intended asyou say than I apologise for snapping back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debra Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistral Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 [quote user="KathyC"] I have not heard of anyone on these boards planning to take out French nationality. [/quote]No, I'm not planning on doing it, I 've already done it.I didn't wait until then to start commenting on the country. I live here, work here, pay French taxes and send my (french) children to French schools. I feel that whatevever my nationality is/was my point of view was a valid as the next person's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamedup Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 L’école est elle-même traversée par des problèmes nombreux et profonds (classes surchargées, manque de personnels et multiplication des statuts précaires, manque de soutien pour les élèves en échec ou en difficulté...), What do you want to hear Debra? The above quote can be found quite easily on anything serious about education in France and is not something that only pertains to any sort of minority. The whole system worries me. And I NEVER imaged that MY CHILDREN would have any problems at all. Even the eldest has been left scarred and the extent of this scarring has only come to light in the recent past. AND he was sans problemes. From being a very pleasant average kid should he still be feeling like this about school as an adult and is still calling all teachers connards and saying that he will NEVER go back to study, with a vehemence that is alarming. We have told him that we will help him if he wants to study again as we would like him to. And still I have never based my views solely on our experiences. I am and always was very interested in other children and how they are doing. And I have seen a lot of kids grow from toddlers to adults, some now with children of their own go right through the french system. I still have friends with children of all ages at school. There are so few negative posts about french education on here. Apparently everything is fine or really good for the majority of brit kids, I have no idea as to how or why this percentage is so high. I don't understand it at all and it can only leave parents like myself standing back in amazement and sometimes I admit, disbelief. And if all we are told is really true, well, well done all you very clever, very adaptable children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debra Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debra Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrisb Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 [quote user="Teamedup"] There are so few negative posts about french education on here. Apparently everything is fine or really good for the majority of brit kids, I have no idea as to how or why this percentage is so high. I don't understand it at all and it can only leave parents like myself standing back in amazement and sometimes I admit, disbelief. And if all we are told is really true, well, well done all you very clever, very adaptable children.[/quote]The thing is, we can only post our own point of view, things as we see them.Your children were very unfortunate in that they hated, and were let down by the French system, and I feel for them, and you, I really do. But for those of us whose children genuinely are, or seem to be doing OK, what are we supposed to say?? I admit, it's not perfect here, far from it - in his first year at college my eldest was always 'en colle', but he decided to pull his finger out, and hasn't had 1 detention yet this year. He wants to be a doctor, and his headmaster has said that he considers him capable of doing that . The youngest, sometimes a bit cheeky, thinks he might like to study music, but he is only in CM2, so has plenty of time to decide. He has had his face tapped (and I mean tapped, not hit, slapped etc etc) by his teacher with a ruler - he said it didn't hurt, he wasn't emotionally scarred by the experience - I said it served him right for messing about!Debra, you will find out what it's like when you get here, your children might take to it like a duck to water, they might hate it, you might decide that the local state scool suits their needs, or you might decide to send them to private school ( I have one at each at the moment). I have always found the teachers to be pretty approachable...........but I do like to copy my French friend who when she wants to complain, is unfailingly polite,flatters the recipient enormously, and then moves in with the comment she wishes to make...............I've never known her to fail - she says that politesse and flattery is essential in order to get ones own way, and that if you go in with a very 'stiff' attitude, the drawbridge will go up and you won't have a hope!!Anyway, just my two' penneth worth!ChrisEdit: I was obviously typing this when Debra posted which is why is doesn't quite follow what she was saying! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debra Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamedup Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 Chris B, I have never said that my kids hated being at school. That was not how it was at all. (Well apart from the youngest in the college privé from hell did, but he didn't last a year there.) And what happened to my eldest is not unusual at all and now he is an articulate adult we can discuss it all. But as I said, I never just used my own children to judge the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viv Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 [quote user="KathyC"] The British minority in France don't seem to have any interest in becoming French citizens and don't see themselves as emigrating to the country. That means they are guests and have certain responsibilities.[/quote]Well, I will be taking French citizenship, the whole hog and I am looking into it at the moment.France is my home and I have no intention of going back to the UK to live. I know as an EU citizen I don't have to, but I think it's the right thing for us to do.I would like my children to have dual nationality so that they can fully decide when they are older. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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