Prospects for school leavers?

[SaligoBay]

Given the protests by young people (as mentioned by Val2) up and down the country, maybe we could discuss what you see as the future for your children, those who have come to France for a "better life"?

"But for most people, being young in France is a hopeless nightmare,"

Nearly one in four young French people is out of work, and unemployment among the under-25s has persisted above 20% for a generation.

Although some EU countries in eastern Europe have higher rates, most of these are moving down. France's rate increased in 2002 and has grown steadily for the past four years. The braindrain is worsening, with desperate young people - including many with good degrees - leaving for other EU countries such as Ireland.

Yes, I know it's from the much-aligned Grauniad, but it's in English, and it happens to match up with what I see and hear around me, which is why I've quoted it. http://www.guardian.co.uk/france/story/0,,1727781,00.html

 

 

[fcr]

The total lack of young persons in the villages and towns around our way - Indre - just proves the point from  purely observational/anecdotal evidence. All our neighbours kids are in Paris or the South of France.Youngsters with good degrees are working in supermarkets because that's all there is in this region. We have some factories but not many. It's absolutely tragic when so much talent is wasted.

Fi

 

 

 

 

[Pangur]

The braindrain is worsening, with desperate young people - including many with good degrees - leaving for other EU countries such as Ireland.

[:D]

How things change, and oh so quickly.  I'm part of the Irish brain drain and now look at our economy.   We were taught German in school because it made economic sense.  Now its Spanish that's being pushed in Irish schools. Economies change and who knows, maybe in 10 years the UK will be in a recession with spiralling unemployment figures.  And as european languages are neglected in UK schools and universities, they won't even have the option of emigration.

In my opinion, all you can do is give your child a decent education, a fufilling childhood and equip them with all the tools for success that you can.  You cannot predict the future or future unemployment figures.   I went though school in a country in a much worse economic state than France - however I had a fantastic childhood and an excellent education and that is what I'd like to give my children.  I know quite a bit about the UK educational system from work and it's not a system I'd like my children to go through. 

France is obviously going through a pretty painful period at the moment and is trying to figure out which way to go.  They're certainly discussing it enough!  Perhaps the upcoming presidential election will force some changes.  It is certain that things have to change and perhaps people can take comfort from the fact that young people in France are protesting and standing up for themselves. 

 

[Viv]

Well said Pangur.

 

[Will]

[quote user="fcr"]

The total lack of young persons in the villages and towns around our way - Indre - just proves the point from  purely observational/anecdotal evidence.

[/quote]

But isn't that the result of all the British buying up houses so that families and young people can't afford to live in the countryside?

No, I don't believe that either. But judging by the rubbish I've just read on another forum, mostly being spouted by people who probably only have a holiday home or have lived here for a very short time, a lot of people do believe it.

Another opinion being bandied about there is that British people move to France to give their kids better opportunities - they don't want them growing up in the 'me first' British culture. As trends in France tend to follow those in Britain, their kids will probably reach maturity at just about the same time the French equivalent of 1980s Thatcherism and yuppie culture is at its height.

I don't think I'd regard a country with 20% unemployment and definite discrimination against enterprise as offering opportunities for our kids, who are doing quite OK for themselves in England thank you.

[Teamedup]

French students have been demonstrating for the last 25 years since I have been here. AND I suspect that this is on going since '68. So nothing new there then. Each new wave having their own little way of doing it.

 

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="Pangur"]

The braindrain is worsening, with desperate

young people - including many with good degrees - leaving for other EU

countries such as Ireland.

[:D]

In my opinion, all you can do is give your child a decent education,

a fufilling childhood and equip them with all the tools for

success that you can.  You cannot predict the future or future

unemployment figures.   I went though school in a country in

a much worse economic state than France - however I had a fantastic

childhood and an excellent education and that is what I'd like to give

my children.  I know quite a bit about the UK educational

system from work and it's not a system I'd like my children

to go through. 

 [/quote]

And properly equip them to be mobile. Being bilingual could hardly be a disadvantage.

I wonder, were the situation reversed, how mobile British youth would

be, given the lowly status of language education in the UK at the

moment. I notice Amazon have upped sticks and moved their European

customer support from somewhere near Swindon to Eire because they

couldn't get the staff with the necessary skills...

[godwinsj]

It is worrying however, although I do agree that you can only do your best for your children. For me the sorrow is that unless things chnage I can't see any of my children staying in France unless they want to take over the business!

My daughter is hoping to go to Paris to study law after her Bac & her History teacher told her she would be in her 30's before she would find a permanent job, going by present day statistics!

[SaligoBay]

[quote user="jond"][And properly equip them to be mobile. Being bilingual could hardly be a disadvantage.

I wonder, were the situation reversed, how mobile British youth would be, given the lowly status of language education in the UK at the moment.
[/quote]

I think British yoof are as mobile as anyone else.

I guess your children must be getting excellent, advanced training in a number of modern languages here in France?   Because most don't, and French people are very honest about that.

If I joke about my dog being bilingual, it's very common for French people to say something like "well, he's doing better than us French lot do".  Many French people firmly believe that France is useless at modern languages.  They say the Dutch are the best. 

Of course there are French people who speak English, but it's because they want access to the culture and the job opportunities, not because France is inherently better at languages.  German, for example, is not popular here as a second language.

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="SaligoBay"]

I guess your children must be getting excellent, advanced training in a

number of modern languages here in France?   Because most

don't, and French people are very honest about that.

[/quote]

Why would you guess that? They are four and six. Two langauges will do for now.

[quote user="SaligoBay"]

They say the Dutch are the best.

[/quote]

Lots of people think that, not just the French. Many Dutch people I

knew when I lived there reckoned that the Norwegians were better. Close

run thing I'd say.

[quote user="SaligoBay"]

Of course there are French people who speak English, but it's because they want access to the culture and the job opportunities

[/quote]

How very wise of them - it would seem sensible to follow their example then! Not sure that all of them are that keen on the culture bit though.

[Val_2]

I know several young people from our commune who have gone abroad to find work, not just the UK but Slovakia, French Guyana and St.Pierre whatsit off Newfoundland. Others have left the sticks here and gone to Nantes, Paris and other large french cities to find work and many many are working in supermarkets and petrol stations or Brico Depot type places for 8,03€ SMIC. I worry, of course I do but then, whats the point when all you can do is get your kids to do their best and try and get some knowledge behind them. I've always said and many have agreed that a manual skill is something you can build on rather than some stupid degree in a subject that has no earthly use. Its a big problem here and listening to France Inter today it was being discussed and some measures by the CAF and URSSAF to help people find work but if the jobs aren't there in the first place because the employers are being strangled over social charges what hope do we have. Its time this government revamped the systems here instead of hanging onto old fashioned ones and encouraged businesses and foreign investment without being strangled. A good example is my BIL currently transporting 4 HGV loads per week from Heathrow to Paris to avoid fiscal problems for the company involved if they went direct to France. He comes back empty mostly but the company here are only to pleased to pay over the odds for their goods.

[Viv]

It may well be that my school age children leave France when they are older, I think Brits are more mobile and perhaps more adventurous than they  used to be.

BUT at the moment, as children, I think they are far, far better off in France than the UK, and whilst I do give thought to the future, I live in the present.

Surely SB even you must have hope for the future, or wouldn't you be elsewhere?

[hastobe]

I honestly don't think its any better here in the UK.  There are

now a proliferation of young people with University degrees. There has

been a huge emphasis in the UK on getting a degree and many youngsters

feel obligated to spend three years at University emerging with a

degree (and a huge amount of debt) that makes them no more employable

than before.  My husband regularly interviews graduates for posts

that are more vocational than academic and finds that he gets 50+

applicants for a single job.  In amongst these are many youngsters

with very good degrees - who have done all the 'right' things, educationally, but

who are long term unemployed / stacking shelves / working on a checkout

in Tesco.  It's really sad. 

The old trade apprentices seem to be a thing of the past. 

There was a recent article in the national press saying that now

plumbers and electricians in the UK earn more per hour than either

solicitors or doctors because they are so scarce.  Unfortunately

there are very few places left to do the training for these sorts of

jobs - that also give you the practical experience. With no

apprenticeships and only college courses in plumbing etc, kids get a

qualification but no experience and without the experience no-one

wants to employ them.  A neighbours lad did the plumbers course,

he qualified without any difficulties - but couldn't get a job and

didn't have enough experience to work for himself.  He's now a

care assistant on minimum wage. 

Looking at it cynically, like France, its a government issue -

politicians who are so bothered about education / employment

statistics that they have lost touch with reality.  If you are

student in the UK you have to fund yourself with a loan from the

government (no benefits or grants anymore) and, as a bonus, you are excluded from

the unemployment figures.- the government wins - the kids lose.

Hastobe

[Debra]

.

[SaligoBay]

[quote user="viva"]

Surely SB even you must have hope for the future, or wouldn't you be elsewhere?

[/quote]

Viva, you assume that I am free to wander the globe at will.

No, the youngsters I know in the UK are doing nicely.  Here's just one....... left school, joined an accountancy firm, got a load of qualifications while working, decided she didn't like it, tried army basic training, didn't like it, got another accountancy job, now at 20 is on £20k, is now aiming to do a 3-month personal trainer course, after which, if she does well, she could be earning £30k.  Not bad.

And she's not the only one.  The youngsters I know in France can only scrape by.  I find no optimism or ambition in France at any level, even among those who have jobs.

For my personal future, no, I have no hope either.  I'm 42, and feel that my life is effectively over.  I've been trying for years to get a real job, done bilans de compétences and all that stuff, been through ANPE, ASSEDIC, blah blah blah.   SMIC-paid labouring jobs are all very well, but after a while you start to think that's all you're worth, at which point you have to jack it in and look for something else.

[hastobe]

[quote user="SaligoBay"]

Here's just one....... left school, joined

an accountancy firm, got a load of qualifications while working,

decided she didn't like it, tried army basic training, didn't like it,

got another accountancy job, now at 20 is on £20k, is now aiming to do

a 3-month personal trainer course, after which, if she does well, she

could be earning £30k.  Not bad.

[/quote]

I think that is unusual and she has been very lucky.  Accountancy

students (especially school leavers) are often paid a very low wage

and, if she is only twenty, she will not have completed the accountancy

training which would limit her potential salary in accountancy. 

Most accounts clerks I know working in practice earn not much above the

minimum wage.  In my experience (working in a department of 50+

accountants / accounting technicians) many of the fully qualified

accountants with 10+ years experience would be struggling to earn the

£30k salary you quoted.  But then I do live North of Watford gap

[;)]

Hastobe

[Viv]

[quote user="SaligoBay"]

 

Viva, you assume that I am free to wander the globe at will.

[/quote]

Sorry , I just assumed that you were from the UK and could go back there if you ever really needed /wanted to.

[KathyC]

I agree with Hastobe, your example seems to have been exceptionally lucky. If that were in any way normal we would not have over 30% of 18 year olds going to University in the UK. Many  students would give their eye teeth to be able to get a well paid job without carrying on in education. I also know that most many of them do not go into "graduate " jobs when they finish and the average starting salary is £18,500. Considering that this average includes London, it shows how much lower salaries would be elsewhere.

[SaligoBay]

Oddly, her sister also left school and guess what, went into accountancy!   Younger, and with a different firm, so "only" on about £17k just now.

Another one started off doing a college qualification in horse management, decided she didn't want to spend her life working for rich people, and is now becoming one herself, by changing to...... you guessed it, accountancy!

Does the world really need so many accountants??????

A lad with no qualifications whatsoever took it upon himself to set up a little business doing Masticking.  I mean, really!  And he is doing EXTREMELY well, earning money that people in France just couldn't dream of, because it is possible to start a business from nothing in the UK.

I know there are unfortunates who don't manage these things, but my point is that I don't see these success stories in France.  Even those with jobs are unhappy! 

[Jo53]

[quote user="Pangur"]

 It is certain that things have to change and perhaps people can take comfort from the fact that young people in France are protesting and standing up for themselves. 

[/quote]

But they're not protesting against unemployment, they are protesting against a measure (the contrat premiere embauche) that is designed to help them get jobs!! I despair at the French attitude. The CPE allows an employer to take a young person on without giving them the usual cast-iron job security for the first two years. The young employee still has many rights, and the CPE reverts to a normal contract at the end of 2 years if the person is kept on (as I understand it from our French newspaper). But that's not good enough for these young people, apparently. You'd think they would jump at the chance of getting a foot onto the labour market. Most of them have never worked a day in their lives (Saturday jobs and holiday work being unusual here) and many have spent years taking course after course, being supported by their parents and the state. All this whingeing about 'precarite' - surely the real precarite is being unemployed.

I really do wonder what planet they are living on. If they are waiting for a mysterious benefactor in the sky to hand them down their birthright of a job for life (at 35 hours a week and 6 weeks holiday to boot), they have got a long wait coming.

Jo

[SaligoBay]

Unless they join the Civil Service!  [:D]

[Mistral]

Ah no, most of them don't want to join the civil service. This big problem with being a fonctionnaire is mouvement national. They could find themselves posted to another region and  for a lot of them that's a complete no no.

 

[Will]

The 'job for life' idea seems to be a large part of the French mind set. Unfortunately, for them, it is fast disappearing, but coming to terms with this fact is proving very difficult, for the protesting young and probably even more so for the parents who gave them the belief that if they went to uni, did their bac etc they would be set up for life.

It would be a pity to see this topic degenerate into a France is better than Britain, or vice versa, argument. I don't think that was why the discussion was started.

I do find it worrying that, just as French kids have been misled about their future prospects, British parents get similar ideas that their kids would be better off in France. They may get a better education, though that in itself is open to debate ('different' or 'more traditional' does not necessarily equate to 'better'), but the shock will come when they finish that education, and may well be forced back to Britain. At least somebody with French qualifications stands a better chance of working in Britain than the other way round. But the kids will be on their own - how will most of the parents be able, without an exit strategy well-planned from the outset, be able to return to their homeland 10-15 years later?

[jonesenfrance]

At the age of 21 I left the UK and moved to the Middle East. My parents didn't come too? Why would they? I was an adult and didn't need my parents to babysit me.

By the time my children finish their education in France they won't be children and will, hopefully, be ready and willing to make their own way in the world.  If that means they move back to the UK I don't see that it means that I have to go too.

 

 

 

 

[Val_2]

My 19-year old nephew with A level passes in the UK has just failed his RAF entrance exam on the english test by three points and cannot join - I ask you what is going on there too! Now he and his brother are thinking of trying the army for a career as they cannot get any apprenticeships anywhere in their area of the UK. Underneath the surface, the two countries seem to be on par with jobs for the young or lack of them and the minimum wage per hour for the under 21's is still lower than France although french wages do deduct more at the end of the month.