Chris Head Posted December 22, 2006 Share Posted December 22, 2006 Anyone had any experience of this?We had heard a few stories a few years ago that a few of the teachers were anti Brit, one English family warned us and the the rest were French freinds with kids at the college. Two names came up repeatedly.My eldest has just finished his first term in college, his behaviour is poor, the report bad and he's clearly not too chuffed. He's a bright lad with a great brain but gives almost nothing away, he's a bit of an introvert. However last night he voluntarily confided to Sarah that there were a couple of French lads who were trying to get him into trouble and declaring that they hated the English, when asked if there were problems with any of the teachers he just shrugged. My son recounted the story to the teacher, no action appears to have been taken. I'm not against my boy having a rough time now and again, he's got to grow up sometime, but I'm more or less sure there is something going on, either overtly or covertly.An English woman waiting for her son at the college had to intervene when a prominent teacher was handling her son aggressively, accusing him of throwing a bag into a tree, he's one of the two names that we are aware of. My instinct and my way, is to confront the problem and the people, Sarah has managed to dissuade me thus far. If it's going on it really could affect the confidence of my son in the long run. Clearly nobody will be standing up and admitting to racism, but to go in there and let them know that we know type thing can't be a bad thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beryl Posted December 22, 2006 Share Posted December 22, 2006 Introvert and poor behaviour seem a bit of an odd match, Chris. I am sure you know your son better than the school but I would monitor the situation a little further before going into the school, gather a bit more evidence eg those that give him a good report and those that don't. Ask your son, if there is any other reason why he may be getting bad comments, it may be subjects that don't hold his interest and he may not realise perhaps that he is coming across in a certain negative way. Your son may not thank you in the long term, if you go into school without the full facts. Please don't think I am criticising your son as it could well be that the teachers are at fault but it may be that your son is not being fully honest with you even if he thinks he is. I really believe generally teachers have children's wellbeing at heart and standing united with them to solve a problem is better than allowing children to play one off against the other. Though I am sure, this is not what your son or you wants or intends.Really hope I haven't overstepped the mark here [:)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Head Posted December 22, 2006 Author Share Posted December 22, 2006 Of course you haven't overstepped the mark Beryl, I appreciate honesty, which is why I've asked the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoddy Posted December 22, 2006 Share Posted December 22, 2006 This is such a hard question, Chris.Let me tell you a little story from my teaching days.As a secondary school teacher in a big school you often don’t teach the same children year after year. I had a group of four firls who, by chance, I taught for all five. One of these girls was much brighter than the rest and I tried everything I knew to make her take herself more seriously and work harder and I failed.Then they all went out for a week’s work experience. Nasma, the really bright one, had been to a solicitor’s office and came back full of enthusiasm and told me that she wanted to be a solicitor’s secretary.I said she was capable of being a solicitor so why did she want to be secretary. She stared me full in the eyes for a long moment and then said, “Miss, I always thought you were racist.”I was pretty cross and asked her what on earth she meant and she replied that I’d always given her a harder time than her three friends. In a way she was right because I always expected more of her than the others.Just a thought and no offence intended to secretaries.Hoddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Katie Posted December 22, 2006 Share Posted December 22, 2006 That is quite true Hoddy. My son is very bright but also a bit of a nuisance at school and quite lazy. I have found that he has always been picked on more by the teachers than his friends who are less bright. I have therefore always worked very closely with his schools throughout his schooling years. Some of the teachers did not like him, my instinct told me this... but thats life, we are all different. Most of the teachers however, were out to get the best from him. My advice Chris is to visit the school and see these teachers if possible with a view to putting a plan into place to obtain the best for your son[;-)]. From this meeting, you will have a gut instinct whether these guys have a genuine interest in your son or whether they do in fact have a hatred for your nationality as you "fear".When you come away from this first meeting, things will seem clearer to you for you to apply the correct line of thought before making your next move (should you need to)Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Head Posted December 23, 2006 Author Share Posted December 23, 2006 That's a poignant story Hoddy. I deliberately let the term finish in the hope that I might be able to coax more out of him, (difficult at the best of times) and choose the best course of action. There's a parents evening in the new year which will be a start.Our sons sound very similar Katie! Sebastien has already had three detentions in his first term, and has another to go back to. Mainly for not doing homework. The day is a long one for him, leaving the house at 0740 and getting back at 1810, I guess the idea of homework isn't too attractive after a long day. Sarah tries to keep up with what he has to do but he's adept at delivering misinformation! He'll be bucking his ideas up in the new year, we'll do everything we can from our end.Thanks for the thoughts so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rascalb Posted December 23, 2006 Share Posted December 23, 2006 Chris I think you are right and you should approach the school albeit on a casual nature firstly about the problems your son is having. I too work in a large english secondary where we have large numbers of Eastern European children. We have found that despite our best efforts some of the children are still not integrating (believe me we are trying) and a few have passed comments that they are picked on because they are non nationals. Invariably they are just like any other children with individual hang-ups, therefore I would try not to go in on a "British" tack and with an open mind as the teachers will be more at ease and feel able to be as open as possible with you. Not sure if you are taking your son to the initial meeting, but this also sometimes reveals information you are unaware of. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistral Posted December 23, 2006 Share Posted December 23, 2006 I agree with Katie, I think you should go in. If you were in the UK and you had a report like this, then surely you would go in as a concerned parent. Personally as a college professeur principal, I appreciate when a parent shows that they realise that there is a problem and comes in to discuss what we can do to help the situation. I think the best thing is to ask to see the professeur principal (you should have a page for demande de rendez-vous in the carnet de corréspondence/liaison) Give them a week or so's warning so they can ask around to get an idea of everybody's feeling about your son. Don't go in accusing people of racism. go in because you're worried about your son and then gently bring in a comment about how your son sometimes has the feeling that people are less patient with him because of his non-frenchness.....As for anti brit feeling. Teachers are human beings; some of them have some very strange opinions and reactions. Some of my colleagues are unbelievably patient with non-French speakers, others complain that they can't do anything to help and leave them to struggle in one corner of the room, others give them a term and then complain they aren't integrated. Most of us do all of that in the same day depending on our mood. A lot of teachers in france seem to believe shouting at pupils is normal, regardless of nationality. Sometimes a problem has nothing to do with nationality. I don't know how many times I have been accused of being racist by pupils I have punished for various things. "You're only punishing me because I'm ...... (fill in box)" No, I'm punishing you because you hit another pupil/ spat/ said NTM/ tried strangling someone/ didn't do your homework/ made farmyard noises in class/ set fire to the toilets......" Other kids trying to get him into trouble sounds pretty standard (unfortunately) they'll always find an excuse or a "difference" to work on. But no-one says he has to do what they ask...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoddy Posted December 23, 2006 Share Posted December 23, 2006 Perhaps I should have said that the last time I heard of Nasma she was in the first year of a law degree.Your son has a great advantage over her, supportive parents.Hoddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Head Posted December 23, 2006 Author Share Posted December 23, 2006 Thanks rascal & Mistral, that's a great help, I'm not much of a diplomat nor am I really in touch with the dynamics of higher education, you've all helped to clear the fog somewhat.His size might have a bearing on it, aged 11 he's 1,70m size 43 feet and hands like saucers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ormx Posted December 23, 2006 Share Posted December 23, 2006 something similar has happened at our local college, and the reports of several students matched up, as well as the fact that the teacher made the offending comments in front of some parents at a parent-teacher meeting.so, the association des parents d'eleves has taken the matter very seriously and is in full discussion with the teacher in question and the principal, they are also writing a letter to the board of education.the comments? well it's an english boy and he has been told more than once that he should go back to where he came from, and when sarkozy gets into power he'll be sent home! the boy, by the way, is supposed to be a terrible trouble-maker, but that's still no way to talk to him.would you approach your parents d'eleves association and ask them theri opinion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Katie Posted December 23, 2006 Share Posted December 23, 2006 Ormx, Racism certainly does exist in schools, in fact everywhere. My daughters teacher who is Irish collared me in a pub one night and collared me about the Black and Tans and gave me a load of rubbish about how Celts should stick together. There are English kids in his school, I am half English, half Welsh and it is a load of rubbish. I told him you have got to move on in fact, he is disliked in our town because of his anti English views. Probably this teacher you talk about is disliked for the same reasons.Chris, dont let these comments get under your collar. Go to the school and suss out the teachers for yourself. Remember what Hoddy said. It is probably that your boy is bright but lazy and therefore messing up their targets.And come to think of it, yes, they probably "hate" British pupils because they make their targets more difficult to achive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Head Posted December 23, 2006 Author Share Posted December 23, 2006 Ohhhh this is a difficult one....sense and sensibility are racing next to each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Katie Posted December 23, 2006 Share Posted December 23, 2006 Chris, just see the teachers, look them in the eye and suss them out. Surely you are more than capable of doing that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoddy Posted December 23, 2006 Share Posted December 23, 2006 I'm not clear what format the report you've had takes. I think I would ask the teacher who gave the bad report to explain in more detail what he/she thinks your son has been doing wrong so that you have a clearer idea. I would at least appear to make the assumption that the teacher wants to help. When you've had the explanation and maybe discussed what can be done to improve things, I would ask what was done about the two boys who were trying to get your son into trouble. I know it's hard when your own child is involved to stay unemotional, but if this dispute escalates, you'll spoil your own arguments if you appear to be anything other than reasonable. It's also worth remembering that your son is likely to be in this school for some years and that you don't want to antagonize anyone unnecessarily.Hoddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori Posted December 24, 2006 Share Posted December 24, 2006 Chris - I think you have gotten some very good advice here. My daughter had a tough first year of college (last year) and I was very concerned, but figured it was her first try at "freedom" and she got a bit carried away. I did meet with her prof. principal last year and her French teacher. I liked one, not the other. So, by all means meet with the teachers, but don't meet with just one. Meet with as many as you can.This year is another tough one for us. Our daughter is quite bright, always got 19's and even 20's all through primary school, then puberty hit and all hel@@ broke loose. This year, I have gotten in there quickly. Wrote letters to her math teacher, where she was doing very poorly. Met with Math teacher and Math teacher met with daughter (privately). Suddenly, now she loves math and is doing very well and respects the teacher !!! I then met with the Prof. Principal (French teacher). I fully expected a horrible experience as last year's wasn't too good. WRONG !! She was fantastic. She had drawn up a Monday through Friday grid for ALL of daughter's teachers to complete at the end of each week. The categories were Performance in Class, Behaviour, homework, participation and a couple more. I will have to sign the page each week. Then, she suggested I check her agenda EACH DAY to determine which homework assignments were given in each class, then to ask to see the work. This way I know what she is SUPPOSED to do and whether or not she has done it - and understood it. I am to check her Cahier de Correspondence EVERY DAY (before I would ask if there was something to sign - not now). We also ask her to spend 30 minutes each evening describing what she did in each of the day's classes. It really annoyed her at first, but now she is getting in the hang of it. These things are helping.She too has been in detention several times - mostly for not completing an assignment or for gabbing in class (something I am furious with). The nicest thing about meeting with this year's Prof. Principal is that, after speaking for 45 minutes (in French), she tells me I can speak English if I like - now she tells me ! When I had the meeting with her to pick up daughter's Bulletin (a week or so ago), I spoke with daughter only in English (French to the teacher), but had said quite a mouth full to daughter (in English). At last Friday's meeting, teacher told me she understood what I said to her. I told her I had hoped she might. She then told me she was married to a Canadian and she spoke pretty good English. I asked her if she understood ALL that I had said to daughter that night - yes she did. Oh, I was SO SO glad and told her so. There was no time to repeat it all in French that night and I'm not sure I could have translated all of it anyway.Anyway Chris, go meet with the teachers. Don't be harsh at first. Like Beryl said, don't assume that all your son has said is the entire picture. I'm not saying your son would fib, but sometimes kids just don't see the whole picture. Listen to the teacher and then meet with some more. You'd be surprised how different one meeting can be to the next. Get involved NOW ! Don't wait. If you find that you are not needed later, you will not be sorry you went.Best of luck to you. This is a really tough age and people tell me it gets worse. Why is it no one can ever tell me anything nice to look forward to??? Sauf, they will eventually move out .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistral Posted December 24, 2006 Share Posted December 24, 2006 Hoddy, I'll try and explain what the report probably looks like. In France, the end of term bulletin is a single piece of A4 paper. You will have a table on it with a space for each subject the pupil has studied. There will be the pupil's average grade out of 20, possibly the average of the class and a small space for each teacher to write a comment. Comments are usually along the lines of "the results this term are disapointing due to lack of attention in class and serious work at home" (I'm giving an example for length not necessarily wording) At the bottom, there will be a resumé of all the comments/grades written by the prof principal or the headteacher. It won't be much longer than the individual comments. It should contain a comment about the results, a reason for the results and advice for the next term. So in France when you say a pupil has a bad report, it's probably not because of one subject/teacher but because the end comment is negative. That should only be the case is the majority of subject comments are. That's why the best person to start with is the prof principal, who will have been involved in writting the end resumé, who will have been present at both the conseil de classe and the conseil de profs and whose job it is to keep an eye on the whole class throughout the term. Chris, thinking about this and rereading, I really think it is very important for you to go in and talk to the Prof P as soon as you can. 6eme is so important. The sooner you can get an idea of just what is happening, the better. If you want me to try to analyse any of the comments on the bulletin or when you meet the prof p (translate "teacherese" as it were) don't hesitate to pm me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Head Posted December 24, 2006 Author Share Posted December 24, 2006 You're right about the good advice Lori, it's first class! We've even got our very own Principal! How cool is that?Thanks for the time taken to write Mistral, it's greatly appreciated, I'll do as you suggest. Of course I'll PM if I need any further help, that's very generous of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWINKLE Posted December 24, 2006 Share Posted December 24, 2006 Whatever you decide to do - NEVER speak to the child or the parents of the child yourself. Go see the 'Directeur' and let him know that your worried your child is being bullied or singled out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori Posted December 24, 2006 Share Posted December 24, 2006 Ditto what Twinkle said.. And yes, we are all very lucky to have Mistral posting here on the forum. Thank you Mistral.Bonnes Fetes to everyone.Lori Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSA Aude Posted December 27, 2006 Share Posted December 27, 2006 We too have had a few problems - hopefully all sorted out! Son is in his third year of college, luckily the first year was fine. Second not good at all, accused of distracting other students, talking too much and not spending enough time on home study. Met with the prof. principal (whom neither hubby or I particularly liked - very arrogant and not at all welcoming), we both read the riot act and things, we understood, generally improved until end of term. Summoned once again, just before Christmas, to see the new prof. principal. What a delightful change, very welcoming, took a long time to talk to us all and various options put forward to help improve his work standard. She did stress it was not a problem in all subjects and that we will meet again in the new year. Do think a lot depends on the attitude of the prof. and whether or not she/he is happy to have an on-going relationship with the parents (had the impression from the former one that we were a last resort - bang on at the students for as long as poss!). Was told by the previous one he was only distracting others in the English lesson - according to himself he had been asked to help out - who do you believe!!?? Best of luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulieR Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 My daughter is also having problems in our local college. Her first year was a bit fraught as she didn't want to move to France and therefore didn't make any effort to learn the language or integrate. She made friends with another english girl who had also just moved over here and this helped her to settle into the area but not the school. I think this is why she is now having trouble as they have just labeled her as not wanting to learn. She has now realised that she must learn. We asked if she could be put in a different class to her english friend this year in hopes that she might make more effort to find new friends and learn the language. She has no friends in the class (so she says) and the teachers just seem to ignore her. She also sits alone in most lessons. I went to see the principal to ask if she could maybe change classes as she was so unhappy. His reply was quite shocking to me as he said she did not need friends as she was only at school to learn. He also said as her results were so poor there was obviously a problem with her not her class!.This might be the reply I would expect if she was french but how is she supposed to keep up with everything going on if she doesn't understand what is going on. I am sure in a uk school, a foreign student would not be left alone to get on with it and then put down because of poor end of term results. When I suggested she might be better in another college I was told that she had tno choice because of the catchment area. The language is a problem for me and I cannot make a good argument in french. Is is normal for this attitude? Is it just the difference between english and french teaching methods? My daughter is 15 so has not got time to waste another year. I am obviously going to go back into the school, maybe with a french speaker to help but the school seems to have the attitute that the english are a nuisance and they can't be bothered with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opas Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 julieR, I am not sure that your situation is anything to do with the OP problems. I will probably get some flack for saying this, but I fear you are the example any parent who is thinking of moving to France(or anyother foreign language country) with a teenager, needs to take into account.From your post I understand that your daughter has done a year in school here and is now in her second year here. How the heck did you expect your daughter , who did not even want to move to france, to catch up with about 10 years of French lessons in 2 years and keep up with her education at the same time? Was she not offered extra classes in French in her first year, if not, ( I believe there is extra funding for forreign students) why did you not get a Tutor in to help her at home? At the same time you could have gotten yourself some extra tuition to help you face situations such as this.You need to talk to your daughter, find out where her problems lie, speak to the school and see where they can help her. As to your last sentence, would you be bothered with someone who appears to not be bothered? So how has her other English friend coped and how long has she been at the school?Diverting from the orriginal thread, I repeat, I would not have brought my family to France any later than I did, our eldest was 9 years old , always struggled in UK school and has to work hard here to get just above the moyen.I hope someone else can give you the answers you need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori Posted December 31, 2006 Share Posted December 31, 2006 Julie - I must say that I agree with what Opas has said. She speaks from experience. But, I would add that you should not feel that your treatment is due to your being British. Anything is possible, BUT, the reaction you received from the school is very often the reaction French families receive too (when their child is not doing well in school). My first meeting at my daughter's college was not a pleasant experience. I didn't stop there. The meetings that followed were MUCH better. The Director is fantastic. Some teachers are very negative (to any poor performing student AND their parents). Others are very very helpful. Just keep meeting with them. If you feel you can't make yourself fully understood, ask your daughter's English teacher if she would be willing to join you in your meetings with the Director and/or other teachers. In most cases, they are happy to help.Your daughter's age is a real issue. I'm not sure how she will catch up and "make it" at this point, especially if she doesn't really want to. A few positive experiences in school should help. Keep going to school, keep meeting with anyone who will take the time to meet with you. You owe it to your daughter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistral Posted December 31, 2006 Share Posted December 31, 2006 JulieR, I hate to say this, but I'm not very surprised with the comments you've got from the school. I've never had to deal with British pupils (most of our ENAF's come from eastern Europe or the magreb) but a lot in the situation is the same. What I hear in the staff room for classes without foreign pupils in is mostly along the lines of "I have got 28 pupils in 3emeB, I need to finish the programme, a third of them already have difficulties dating from years before. I just don't have to time to help them or do any remedial work. They've got to keep up" Once you add pupils who can't even understand the language the subject is being taught in, then most teachers just give up. I sometimes get very frustrated with my colleagues. Most of them don't bother grading a foreign pupils for the first year (but there's no set rule) and then suddenly they expect them to be up to level with the rest of the class. Yes, generally we do see non french speakers as a nuisance. We don't know how to help them and after a while most people just give up.Some of the basic problems with collège start (in my opinion) from the fact that all classes are supposed to be mixed ability. The classes are taught to the middle range, the brighter ones pick it up and then get bored (or just get bored without bothering to pick it up) and the ones in difficulty generally tend to give up somewhere during 6eme or 5eme. But the Holy Programme doesn't take this into acount. Every pupil is taught the same things to the same level. And if they can't follow, well that's their fault and their problem. To give you an idea of what the programme means, in histoire-géo, they have a set amount of hours for each stage of the programme (i.e. three hours on the 1st world war, 2 hours on the rise of fascisim...) They can't allow themselves to slow down for the French pupils in difficulty, they just have to plough on. It's not just the language (or lack of it) that is the problem.The programme is constructed in such a way that you need to follow every stage. My husband skipped a year back in primary and he said he sometimes had problems later one because he had missed out on things that were taught that year. The later a foreign pupil comes into the system, the more difficulty they will have even if they are a fluent French speaker. If they arrive in 3eme, then they will be expected to know about the middle ages and the french revolution, the roman policier et fantastique, how to use the passive and relative pronouns, they will be expected to have studied one foreign language for 3 years and another for 1.Since all classes are supposed to be mixed ability, you'll see why the principal didn't want to change your daughter to a different class. It probably won't make any difference. As he told you, French colleges are based on a catchment area system (because they are all supposed to be alike), so you can't change schools either in the state system, although you can go to the private system. It is a lot cheaper than in the UK and often has smaller classes than the state system. In one class I have 6 non French speakers. One has been in france for 7 months, he sits bolt upright listening to every word I say, checking with me (in german) when he hasn't got something, another who arrived 6 months before him has never yet opened his books or said anything other than "bonjour", the next has been in france for 5 years, he is bright and was quick and interested in 6eme, now in 4eme he's more interested in chatting with his freidns and finding excuses for not working. His best friend has been in france for 2 years, he has caught on to the "I'm foreign, I don't understand" excuse and trots it out at every opportunity, The next has been in france for 5 years, she tries hard and copes with the language but she's not very bright and combined with the fact she was working on learning the language and not the programme in the first years means she doesn't always get it. The last has been in france for 2 years, she tries hard, will ask when she doesn't understand and is coping well in most subjects as long as you don't go too fast (still having to explain the odd thing in german to her too) but really struggles in French and histoire-géo. Of course, there are 18 other pupils all with their own problems and behaviour (including a couple who have major behavioral difficulties). I have to admit that I am guilty of giving up (quite a bit if not entirely) on those who are not willing to give any effort because otherwise I just don't know where I would find the time or the energy to teach them the 4eme programme (which isn't easy) in 3 hours a week as well. I know this isn't really any help as a reply. It was more to explain why the school seems to have given up on your daughter. Opas's post contained some very valid points. Personally I would hesitate a long while before bringing a secondary age pupil to France. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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