In a nutshell please?????

[Nicos]

Can't find exact info on here to answer my fairly urgent question- can anyone avise me please??

Father in law has died in UK and an English couple (who live in France)have asked us to drive his car to France when we next go over ( next week) with the intention of them buying it off us ( and we would fly back).

My OH is an executor of his will.

In effect this would be exporting his car, and selling it on behalf of Mother in law.

This seems potentially very complicated to me....

Should it be straight forward or can we expect problems????

[AnOther]

I don't see this as overly complicated.

You will of course need to insure it for the trip and this could be in your own name (potentially expensive for such a short hop) or alternatively, a better plan would be to get the intended purchaser to insure it in France as they will be needing this once it's there anyway, assuming they're going to do things properly that is [Www]. Most French insurance covers any driver (with some possible exceptions) but do make sure they fully explain the circumstances.

Take with you all the paperwork plus a letter from the cars actual owner, MIL or OH whichever, giving you permission to be in possession of and driving it. You should also do your utmost to get hold of the French insurance window sticker which the gendarmes will want to see in the event of an incident.

Whether the car is to be staying in France or not personally I would also tear off the "Exported" portion of the V5 and send it off to DVLA. This is not only the correct thing to do but also puts you in the clear if the new owners happened to not do things properly and then brought it back to the UK at some time in the future still on UK plates but bereft of current Tax and MOT etc., they wouldn't be the first ! You cannot register it to a non UK address so once it has left the UK any future problems or queries will always come back to your departed FIL's address.

Additionally this would also allow you to claim back the balance of the road tax, if any. It won't be of any use in France and they could always re-import the car if the need arose.

To discuss the insurance side of it you could try

Nick Chubb
ASTTRAL SA
Tel.  04 68 32 41 20
Fax  04 68 32 58 80
www.asttral.com

I have no connection with him other than he was very helpful in sorting out a "non standard" car insurance situation for me recently.

Finally, to completely avoid all the pularva, why not get the purchaser to fly over and collect it, it's six and two three's on cost and puts the onus on them to sort out the technicalities for themselves.

Good luck

[Nicos]

Thanks ErnieY.

Nice and clear!

All would certainly be above board.

Yep- think it would be better to suggest they fly over and collect it- they would also have the opportunity of declining their offer if needs be,without putting us out too much!

[Sunday Driver]

As Ernie says, your plan is full of potential complications and can't really be resolved by next week.

In order for the English couple to register it in France, they will need to produce the vehicle's registration document together with a sale receipt.  At the moment, the vehicle is registered under your FIL's name, but the receipt will have to be issued by your MIL.  Cue potential problems with the prefecture.  Remember that in France, the carte grise holder is the owner and in the case of death, the widow must produce a notaire's attestation that she is the new owner through inheritance.

Following a death in the UK, the inheritor must similarly notify the DVLA of a change of keeper so that a new V5C can be issued.  Then once the car is sold, she can ensure that she has no further liability for it by following the normal process and notifying the DVLA of the fresh change of keeper.  She can then hand over the V5C to the new owner.

From the English couple's point of view, they will have a matching V5C and receipt, allowing them to register the car at their prefecture without any problem.

Once the English couple have the V5C and their receipt, they can obtain French insurance on the car (under it's UK registration number) then decide whether to collect it themselves or instruct you as their agent to deliver it to them.

 

 

 

 

[Iceni]

Question for SD - if probate has not been granted who is the keeper ? Or for that matter, owner ?

John

not

[Sunday Driver]

The deceased is still the owner/keeper until such time as probate is granted authorising the executor to dispose of the estate.  

 

 

[AnOther]

A few observations based on my own recent experience:

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]At the moment, the vehicle is registered under your FIL's name, but the receipt will have to be issued by your MIL.  Cue potential problems with the prefecture[/quote]

Potential for problems possibly however, when I arrived in France with my new car, it was still registered to it's original Belgian owner but I had bought it from a dealer in London who's name was on the purchase receipt. Despite this I had no problems either at the Hotel des Impots nor the Prefecture and got my CG without difficulty. Given the circumstances where there seems to be agreement between the family about the transaction and nobody is up to any monkey business I might well be tempted to "sign" the receipt in the name or the deceased FIL backdating it to before the event which would negate any "difficulty" in France [Www] I honestly can't see any foncierre questioning it.

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]Remember that in France, the carte grise holder is the owner and in the case of death, the widow must produce a notaire's attestation that she is the new owner through inheritance[/quote]

It is possible to register a car in France in joint names which is what we did.

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]Following a death in the UK, the inheritor must similarly notify the DVLA of a change of keeper so that a new V5C can be issued.  Then once the car is sold, she can ensure that she has no further liability for it by following the normal process and notifying the DVLA of the fresh change of keeper.  She can then hand over the V5C to the new owner.[/quote]

Strictly speaking correct of course, if the car was remaining in the UK, but in this case it's going to France hence my advice to export it.

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]From the English couple's point of view, they will have a matching V5C and receipt, allowing them to register the car at their prefecture without any problem. Once the English couple have the V5C and their receipt, they can obtain French insurance on the car (under it's UK registration number) then decide whether to collect it themselves or instruct you as their agent to deliver it to them..[/quote]

This refers back to my first point. Also it is quite possible to obtain insurance without being in possession of matching documents. I did it over the phone with the outfit mentioned and all I needed to send was a copy of the Belgian registration and copies of our UK driving licences but was told unequivocally that it was a very temporary arrangement and that I would have to complete the registration formalities as soon as practically possible.

[dave21478]

Re` the insurance for delivering the car...if you are UK resident, you can get pretty reasonable short term insurance from various places.

www.dayinsure.com  is one place. also, Norwich Union do it at http://www.norwichunion.com/short-term-insurance/

prices start from about £12 per day iirc, with a small extra charge for European cover.  I have found this to be the most economical for cover up to a week or so.

[Sunday Driver]

ErnieY

The correct process as previously described is quite straightforward, so there's no point in complicating it.

You had no problems importing your Belgian car because the invoice was issued by a bona fide motor dealer.  This was quite different to the OP's scenario.

The ability to register a car in both names in France is also irrelevant to the OP's scenario.

You are quite correct when you say that the V5C is the required document for obtaining insurance.  This was mentioned purely to illustrate the ease of acquiring insurance under the preferred route of leaving it up to the English couple, as long as they have the V5C in their name.

However, what surprises me most is your advice to backdate the receipt and sign it in the name of the deceased.  Surely commiting such a fraudulent act is 'monkey business' as well not being a clever move, especially when it's not even necessary for the MIL to risk things by doing such a stupid thing. 

It's up to the buyer to accept that there'd be a delay in getting the fully legal paperwork sorted otherwise they may have problems on the French side.  If they couldn't give a toss and are not prepared to do this, then who's to say they won't drop her it it if they get found out?

Do it properly......

 

[AnOther]

SD,

I'm not quite sure what constitutes a "bana fide" motor trader. I'm not saying that there was anything overtly dodgey about where I bought my car from but far from being a mainstream dealer with a flashy showroom and professional headed paperwork his was a large lock up (with, I have to say, some very tasty and expensive LHD metal in it) and his "invoice" a simple preformatted sheet of plain A4 which I could easily have made up myself in minutes which was accepted without question in France despite the registration document still being in the name of the original Belgian owner.

On the subject of the Carte Gris and ownership, I didn't bring this up but simply commented that it was possible to register in joint names.

It is not neccessary to have the V5 (or other equivalent registration document) in ones own name to obtain insurance. You don't even need the actual document, only the VIN number and current registration.

Re signing in the name of the deceased, I did say that in the circumstances I might be tempted which is not quite the same as advising the OP to do so and apart from "bending the rules" exactly what is the harm here ? All the OP want's to do is shift the car on quickly and with as little hassle as possible and this would oil the wheels so to speak.

Calling it Monkey Business would imply that someone is up to some serious no good and perhaps attempting some sort of financial fraud or deceit which is clearly not the case, just who is at risk of being defrauded or even disadvantaged here ? 

With all due respect to the departed FIL he's beyond caring. The executor clearly has the authority and desire to sell the car (and in the aftermath of dealing with the death probably with as least hassle as possible) and the French will have absolutely no reason to question the paperwork and are more likely to be pleased that the new owners are doing the "proper" thing !

Ultimately, in the most simplistic terms, the "nutshell" answer the OP is seeking is to get the intended buyers to fly over and collect it, with the executor giving them the existing V5 and some sort of invoice to present to the Hotel des Impots, and then, most importantly, send the Export slip off to the DVLA - job done.

Just imagine how boring it would be to live in a world where everything was black or white [8-|]

[Sunday Driver]

"Re signing in the name of the deceased, I did say that in the circumstances I might be tempted which is not quite the same as advising the OP to do so"

Really?   Just a heavy hint, then........[8-)]

"Calling it Monkey Business would imply that someone is up to some serious no good and perhaps attempting some sort of financial fraud or deceit which is clearly not the case"

So, you don't see forging a financial document that is going to be produced to the authorities as being deceit?  Seems like the French disagree with your view.....

Article 441 – 6 du Code Pénal:

Le fait de se faire délivrer indûment par une administration publique ou par un organisme chargé d’une mission de service publique, par quelque moyen frauduleux que ce soit, un document destiné à constater un droit, une identité ou une qualité ou à accorder une autorisation est puni de deux ans d’emprisonnement et de 30 000 euros d’amende. Est puni des mêmes peines le fait de fournir une déclaration mensongère en vue d’obtenir d’une administration publique ou d’un organisme chargé d’une mission de service public une allocation, un paiement ou un avantage individuel.

We do live in a world that is black and white in terms of the law - that's it's whole purpose.....

 

[AnOther]

Poor as my French is, from my translation of your quoted article of law I fail to see how it would be contravened.

Basically it says, does it not, that one can be prosecuted for offering false documentation to obtain something to which one would not otherwise be entitled but this is not the case here is it.

The fact is that the seller has the right to sell the car and the invoice or receipt, by whomever signed, would simply be to show that the new owner has bought and paid for it, outwith which it is a completely worthless piece of paper of absolutely no interest nor importance to anyone.

I wish I shared your conviction that the world is B&W in terms of the law. It is indeed the purpose but sadly not always the reality.

Correct me if I'm wrong but are not the French the masters of "interpreting" laws to suit themselves and the current fiasco over health care a glaring example ?

[Sunday Driver]

You still don't understand, do you?

A receipt is a legal document evidencing transfer of title between the parties to a transaction.  It has to have been issued by the owner, otherwise is it a completely worthless piece of paper.  That's basic first-year contract law.

In this case, if the receipt was drawn up after the owner's death, backdated and his signature forged on it, then how can it be a valid receipt?

In the "reality" of law, if you forge a receipt, you create a false account. In France, you have to provide proof of ownership in order to obtain a carte grise.  If you produce a false account to do so, then you breach Art 411-6.

Oh, and the current fiasco over health care arises from the introduction of new law, not through "interpretation"....

 

 

[AnOther]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]You still don't understand, do you?[/quote]

On the contrary SD, I do understand, precisely and exactly, what you are saying. Furthermore, I cannot argue with the fact that technically you are, as usual, correct [:$]

However I do come back to the point that, for there to be any actual deception in the accepted definition of the word, there would neccessarily have to be some attempt or intention to obtain or influence something to which one would not otherwise be entitled and this is simply not the case here is it ? 

The OP clearly indicated that he was hoping for a quick solution and certainly waiting for a change of ownership via DVLA would not fit into his quoted time frame. I regret that your perception of "I might be tempted" is one of it being a "heavy hint". It was certainly not meant to be taken as such and in my opinion falls well short of advising that particular course of action.

Least we get into further protracted discussion I fear we must agree to disagree on this one.

As I mentioned previously there is fair chance that the fact that the name on the receipt differs from that on the V5 would not matter in the slightest to the foncierre at the prefecture.

Without re-registering in the UK and with a receipt signed by the OP's OH the new owners can but try their luck in France. As a backup I suppose she could give the new owners a letter of explaination. Other than that the only other option is to re-register it in UK and suffer the consequential delay.

As an aside the name on the V5 is that of the vehicle keeper who is not neccessarily the owner but I don't want to even contemplate explaining that concept at the Prefecture !

 

[Sunday Driver]

OK, Ernie, I accept that you are quite correct in what you say.

I fully accept your point that forging the signature of a deceased person on a counterfeit receipt is not deception 'in the accepted definition of the word', because it's not intended to influence the prefecture who may otherwise decline to issue a carte grise if they were presented with an ownership receipt signed by someone other than the person mentioned on the certificate of registration .

I also unreservedly accept the fact that by introducing this potential course of action into the discussion over his options (albeit, accompanied by the whistling smiley), you had not intended for the original poster to consider it.

 

[Nicos]

Well- thanks for all your interest folks!

I'll certainly let you know the outcome of the sale of the car!![:)]

[AnOther]

Well I think you'd better after that little exchange, hope your "nutshell" was a coconut and not a Pistachio...............[blink]