Measuring surface habitable

[cafeman72<br><br><br>-- <br>Saintes (17) - nope I dont live in Sarthe, 72 is when I was born.]

Just a quickie really. I was wondering if:-

a) the cellar under our house counts towards surface habitable (I'm guessing no but...)

b) the space the stairs take up (themselves and above) counts towards surface habitable. I'm thinking yes, but at the same time I am not really using, or able to use the 'surface' above the stairs (obviously).

Apart from that I'm assuming that you measure the internal dimensions of each room, add them up, et voilà the surface habitable?

Thanks in advance for any light anyone can shed on this.

[Teamedup]

I'm not sure how it works as our balcony is counted as part of ours.

[BJSLIV]

Définie par le code de la construction (art. R. 111-2), la surface habitable d'un logement est la surface de plancher construite, après déduction des surfaces occupées par les murs, cloisons, marches et cages d'escaliers, gaines, embrasures de portes et de fenêtres . Il n'est pas tenu compte de la superficie des combles non aménagés, caves, sous-sols, remises, garages, terrasses, loggias, balcons, séchoirs extérieurs au logement, vérandas, volumes vitrés ..., locaux communs et autres dépendances des logements, ni des parties de locaux d'une hauteur inférieure à 1,80 mètre.

In essence it is the floor area of rooms, hallways, bedrooms, bathrooms, cupboards, landings, corridors etc but excludes staircases and any area where the headroom is less than 1.8 metres, which mainly affects bedrooms in roof areas.

It excludes, unconverted attics, garages, cellars , balconies etc.

[Coco]

Aha, be very careful here.  Is the house old or new?  Why?  Because we just fell foul of what is surface habitable and what is not.  According to our measurements, internal rooms, no stairwells etc, even AFTER the new work to be done to our property, we were about 10 sq metres within the 170sq metre limit allowed before it is necessary to employ an architect.

However, we got the dreaded "Dossier incomplet" letter from the DDE so I thought it would be quicker to go and see them in person.  It was explained to me that I would need an architect because our surface habitable would be greater than 170 sq metres when the works were completed.  This was because they say that as the hosue is so old and therefore wall thicknesses are not uniform, they take the EXTERNAL measurements of the house and then deduct 5% for walls and insulation, thus coming up with a surface habitable of about 190 sq metres!!!  A lot of our external and internal walls are up to a metre thick, therefore constituting a lot more than 5% of the overall surface area, but not as far as the DDE are concerned!!!

[Teamedup]

BJSLIV, we had to apply for planning permission to extend our balcony and it was refused, too big they said, we had wanted about 35m²or 40m², can't remember now as it was ages ago. It was passed at around 20m² and we were told that that was it. We had had that m² left to play with and that was it. I asked about doing our loft out and they said non.

This was all official via the DDE etc and not just the Mairie playing up. I have asked at the Mairie on several occassions since then and always the same answer, although we've never actually tried putting  another proper application in.

[BJSLIV]

I think the confusion arises , because there are a number of different ways of measuring the surface.

The surface habitable is mainly used for renting properties, and describing them for sale. It is an internal measure as described above, and even excludes,  the thickness of internal walls. It measures the "usable" space.

For planning purposes,  there are

SHOB    Surface hors oeuvre brute

SHON   Surface hors oeuvre nette

To calculate the  SHOB you measure the external  size of the property, for each level of the building and calculate the area.

Including lofts, roof terraces(including those with no means of access ie flat roofs), basements .

The only deduction is for staircases, staircase voids, and  ground floor terraces.

To calculate the SHON

You then deduct

Areas with less than 1.8 metres headroom

Inaccessible roof terraces.

Roof spaces which cannot be converted due to the roof structure

Cellars / Plant Rooms

Balconies etc which are  not enclosed.

Garages

Agricultural barns &  animal accommodation.

Plus a 5% deduction to allow for the thickness of walls

This link gives a pretty clear picture (literally) of how the system works.

http://www.puy-de-dome.equipement.gouv.fr/urbanisme/PermisCo.nst/RUSSIAS/3calculdessurfaces.pdf

The SHON is the measure which is used when calculating the density of land occupation, which determines whether an extension will be allowed. The SHON is used for calculating Taxe D'Equipment and also whether the 170 metre rule for involving an architect applies.

Phew!

 

 

 

[cafeman72<br><br><br>-- <br>Saintes (17) - nope I dont live in Sarthe, 72 is when I was born.]

Fantastic information, including everything I needed to know (and more), thanks!

[Johndeb]

Interesting

We registered to sell our villa with an immobilier who insisted that all we could do was add together all the main rooms of the house.  This came to 130m2.  However, if we add the total ground floor space, the two bedrooms and the bathroom upstairs, this takes it to 170m2.  Slight difference!   We've asked for him to amend but he's refused.  Is he correct?

Thanks

Deb

 

 

 

[Teamedup]

I would say that that was right for selling a property, just the room sizes added up.

[BJSLIV]

johndeb

Have you excluded any/all areas where the headroom is less than 1.8 area?. This area doesn't count towards habitable space. In many French houses this can significantly reduce the nominal area, especially in bedrooms/ bathrooms where sloping ceilings are common.

[Johndeb]

No all rooms are well over 2m in height.  We have a lot of hallway space and this is the contentious issue as the agent hasn't included it, yet if we knocked down walls and made it more open plan, we'd have more space we could quote.  Confused as to why we can't just go with total footprint and then the top rooms (as they are over 1.8m high).