JohnRoss Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Well they seem to be stepping up their use of these flashing robot speed traps! Have seen two in the small back road approaches to Niort of late. If their intention is to keep us down to 50 in built up areas then as a technique it has to be admitted it works. I have had my limiter on every time I go into built up areas since my first fine ever earlier this year, a fair cop guv and no mistake but I don't like the feel of the vehicle with the limiter on, soggy and non-responsive. The limiter does its best but does not catchup quickly when the car is presented with a sudden rise in the road and does not work if there is a downward slope and gravity takes over so the brakes are on-off all the time with a road having long undulations. Have you ever tried to keep your speed at exactly 50 or less, not easy with a digital speed display. I read of some guy getting done for doing 52 the other day though on my ticket it gave up to 54 before one was fined! Try to ignore the queue behind and hope you don't have to accelerate to get out of trouble. They must be raking in a lot of money and the claim is that road deaths in France have decreased so if this was the intention it must be working! Both the vehicles looked like ordinary parked cars by the roadside and were different models. The only clue, when you were close enough, to see is an unusual lump on the back end but by then you would have been clocked if you were exceeding the limit. One wonders if they have covered the cost of these specially fitted vehicles by sub-contracting out to some commercial enterprise. So of course one must say don't speed but if you may go only a few kilometres above the limit even for a few seconds then you may become prey to these robot cars..............................JR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunday Driver Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 I have no trouble driving at 50kph in built up areas....[8-|]However, the authorities realise that not everyone is as skilled as me so they build in a 5kph tolerance to take into acccount people inadvertantly wandering a couple of Ks over the 50. If you add to that the overread on your speedo, then you'd have to be driving at an indicated 57-58kph before you risk being flashed.No need to keep constantly chasing the 50 on your dial.....[;-)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clair Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 There's nothing that says you have to drive at 50, so you could keep your speed just below that... [:)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fi Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Doesn't 50 seem really slow after you've been cheerfully bumbling along at 90 out of towns and villages? Our speedo definitely has it's own ideas about speed - we have the satnav on which I hope is more accurate. And having the brats informing I'm doing 53 and its TOO FAST concentrates the mind nicely!Fi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Braco Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Any speed limit is a maximum – there is nothing stopping you travelling at less. Having attended over fifty crash site fatalities in a previous career I have no sympathy for speeders at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f1steveuk Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 ,Most speedos are a tad opptimistic, even the digital ones, and few manufacturers have more than a couple of speedos in the parts bin to compensate for tyre/wheel size etcThe Passat I have been driving is according to several means, 5 mph opptimistic at 65 mph. The cruise control is absolutely spot on, and holds set speeds brilliantly, so U have no problem trusting it to drive through towns etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnRoss Posted September 23, 2009 Author Share Posted September 23, 2009 Nobody in their right mind would support the idea of speeding and, of course, the law is the law. However the placement of some of these speed limit signs sometimes persuades one to think that the mentality was "This is the physical position of the boundary of this village so this is where the sign goes" with no regard or awareness of the conditions around the road at that point. Like near us where the 50 sign is at the bottom of a steepish hill with a steep rising hill just after with no buildings or connecting roads at that point. A driver might take his foot of the gas going down the hill and in a reasonable gear for a reasonable speed might loose a bit of speed but not enough to come down to 50 at the sign but would on starting to climb the far side long before he got to sensitive areas. So to comply with the law the driver must brake or select a lower gear or both, no good in an automatic. I was taught to use the brakes as little as possible, mind you I did learn to drive in an Austin Ruby which with chassis whip and cable brakes meant using the gear box a lot more, not a good thing in a modern car! There is, also near us, a T junction where a friend of mine was "done" for putting his front wheels over the stop line by about 6 inches. Fair enough but the position of the stop line was set well back from the junction so much so that you could not see if the road was clear from there. Stopping and then crawling forward until you could see is what is needed so was the line in the best place, I think not. I have seen lots of examples of badly placed signs and road markings over the years here. I am not talking about idiots who do high speeds in a controlled zone but unfortunate folk who momentarily gain a few ks on the limit and get flashed at that moment.The few robot cars I have seen have not been placed in sensitive areas but rather in straight road sections where dangers to other people are more limited than say near crossings, in village centres, near schools etc. What you want is folk who will drive according to the road conditions and not according to what the maximum limit is set at regardless. That is the mentality that causes accidents is it not? There are places where to do the limit would be foolhardy to say the least but with robot speed traps we are not encouraging folk to think about the right things! We are only a short distance away now of letting the car learn to drive and with existing technology, very close to hands off driving. My limiter, not cruise control, could be turned on and off automatically, steering not a problem, so is this what we want because we are heading that way? I can see the dashboard now with only one big red button marked "Push in an emergency" and a microphone to instruct the computer, do we really want that?........JR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunday Driver Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 There is no 'mentality' in the positioning of commune signs - they have to be fixed at the boundary of the agglomeration and by law, that's where the 50 limit applies. It is the responsibility of the driver to have regard or awareness of the road conditions at that point.With regard to your 50 sign at the bottom of the hill, you say that to comply with the law the driver must brake or select a lower gear or both, no good in an automatic. I wonder why the rest of us who drive automatics seem to have no difficulty in slowing down, even when going downhill.I do not see how unfortunate folk momentarily gaining a few Ks on the limit and getting flashed can be blamed on badly placed signs or road markings. You are implying that they've inadvertently exceeded the limit, so they must have been trying to comply, therefore they must have seen the sign.....Finally, robot speed traps aren't designed to encourage folk to think about the right things. They are merely there to discourage people from exceeding the speed limit - as you stated earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f1steveuk Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Well I can't speak for the French, but camera placement in the UK in a lot of places is more than a tad cynical. One notorious camera on the A3 has been measured to be less than ten feet after the sign that indicates a 20 mph drop. Now to me, on a duel carriage way,a vert busy one at that, it would be safer to simply lift, not brake like bu##ery and create a situation, but of course if you lift, your never going to loose 20mph in less than ten feet! And there are many examples of this, in the UK. I have to say, I have seen what looks like examples of it in France as well.I like the Austrian system, full size dummies dressed as police, has the right effect, and there are a couple of places were speed cameras simply turn the next traffic lights red and holds you up..................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony F Dordogne Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Easy really, if you know where the signs are, drive within your knowledge and limits - it's easy to blame the signs, far too easy - don't want the fine, keep your speed down as several people have already said, you don't have to drive at the limit, that's only the indicator of how fast you CAN go, not how fast you SHOULD go.If you get flashed or think that the signs are wrong then complain to the appropriate authority in the UK or in France and make sure that the signs comply with the signing regulations.If you don't, coming in here and talking about it achieves nothing, actually complain about it and get something positive done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Braco Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Just for information most speed cameras in the UK are positioned at the point of at least two previous fatalities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f1steveuk Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 [quote user="Braco"]Just for information most speed cameras in the UK are positioned at the point of at least two previous fatalities.[/quote]Most, certainly not all.Tony is right, and as an example, one whole county is about to remove over 50% of it's cameras, and the one I mentioned, which curiously is thesingle highest earning camera in the British Isle, has been moved to a sensible distance after the sign indicating the 20 mph drop in speed. My argument was there should be a sensible distance as it's safer to lift from the throttle, than brake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnRoss Posted September 23, 2009 Author Share Posted September 23, 2009 See http://www.visualexpert.com/Resources/psychwarnings.html I rest my case....................JR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulT Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 I have absolutely no sympathy with anyone who gets flashed - if you drive a car then there are caertain things that you need to comply with.I try to keep to the speed limit - it might occassionally creep 1 or 2 mph above. However, I am sick and tired of other drivers who are right on my bumper trying to push me faster, i.e. exceed the speed limit. Others tooting etc.Now, I am quite happy to drive at the speed limit on Motorways - I am not some doddering old fool.Personally, in the UK, I would award 7 points for speeding thereby a ban for the second offence - I think it ridiculous that it takes 4 offences before being banned.I also find it interesting that people feel it is OK to break the law for certain things. How do they feel about the person who has burgled their home - he is of the same mind 'OK to break the law for certain things'. In his case breaking in to your home and stealing your possessions.Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 [quote user="P2"]I try to keep to the speed limit - it might occasionally creep 1 or 2 mph above. However, I am sick and tired of other drivers who are right on my bumper trying to push me faster, i.e. exceed the speed limit. Others tooting etc.I also find it interesting that people feel it is OK to break the law for certain things. How do they feel about the person who has burgled their home - he is of the same mind 'OK to break the law for certain things'. In his case breaking in to your home and stealing your possessions.Paul[/quote]Hardly in the same league. Sounds like you advocate similar punishment for tailgaters as you would for burglars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f1steveuk Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 I think the biggest gripe over "safety" cameras, is they are rarely somewhere where safety is the main concern, and you do have to wonder when so many speedos are inaccurate, how being "flashed for doing 31, in a 30 is bound to wind anyone up, I tend to drive on my cruise control, set to the speed limit, or below, I have speed warnings on my sat nav (that work very well on French roads as well, and my speedo has been accurately calibrated, yet I was pulled by a man in blue with a laser gun. When ask what speed I was doing I said, with 100% confidence, "39 mph". The response? "Don't be clever mate!". When I pointed out that the peak speed recorded by my sat nav was, 39 mph, the cruise control was set to 40mph, and that the speed indicator on my sat nav was telling me it was a 40 mph area, regardless that there were no signs ( wonder why he picked that particular spot??), and then asked to see his certificate of calibration, he waved me away. Yes I agree with "if you speed you deserve what you get", but I also think that when signs are two feet from the camera when it goes from national limit to 50, or a camera is hidden in a horse box in an area where there are confusing signs, there IS a cynical side to it as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnRoss Posted September 24, 2009 Author Share Posted September 24, 2009 It would, I think, be helpful to consider some of the points already made.........coming in here and talking about it achieves nothing. There some achievements that can be made. Information is power and in this case the power to make good decisions about the way we drive. Being informed about robot speed traps helps us decide our attitude to them and that in turn will dictate our actions. ........it's safer to lift from the throttle, than brake.A point I have made and one only has to observe the actions of locals who know the position of fixed speed cameras and brake just before coming into the camera's range with the obvious risk of a tail shunt. ........they are rarely somewhere where safety is the main concern.Indeed they often seem to be placed, both types, on straight sections of road and in many cases with wide verges where pedestrians and the like are very visible and no side entries. .........as a technique it has to be admitted it works.Indeed it may but for how long. There is evidence that warnings and threats of retribution are ineffective after a period of time as folk become desensitized by constant exposure. ........robot speed traps aren't designed to encourage folk to think about the right things.True but they should do and in that way be more effective. The information board that you see telling you how fast you are rolling has greater psychological impact and leads, in most cases, to right thinking bourne of guilt and reflection. ......If a warning tells the viewer to refrain from behavior which will enable him/her to easily and directly achieve a goal, then the viewer makes a cost-benefit analysisA driver deciding whether to comply with a speed limit sign might calculate the costs of arriving late How people think is very important. Already we are seeing folk, read posts on this and other sites, doing the calculation based on the risk of getting flashed by a robot car. I want to get home fast. Will I get snapped by a robot? What will happen if I am? I will look out for cars parked on the verge and brake if I see one. How much will it cost if I am unlucky? Chances are small and no hard faced cops to deal with, no being pulled over with a lecture and a significant delay in my journey. Punishment will not be today. What we should be encouraged to think is: I want to get home fast but I don't want to have an accident and maybe wreck someone's life and maybe be injure myself. So I will drive according to the road conditions with care and respect for others and speed limits help me to do this. Robot cars and the knowledge of their existence may cause drivers to worry about and take action based on that worry as outlined above and not be concentrating on driving within both the law and what common sense and experience dictates. So in the long run they will not be so effective or desirable. They do however save a lot of money as they earn money and reduce the costs to the police not having to have 4 or 5 officers with a radar gun by the roadside for several hours. This is not a good enough reason for having robot speed traps, to save money and in so doing provide a lesser deterrent. They do not encourage right thinking! ........A driver deciding whether to comply with a speed limit sign might calculate the costs of arriving later. However, the benefit of compliance is the sense of safety and lowered anxiety ("I won't be as likely to get in an accident," "I won't have to spend time and effort looking for a radar trap," etc.) There may be other psychological benefits, such as the sense of being "a good citizen" or "a team player." Sadly robot cars will not achieve this and we do want to be good citizens don't we?........................JR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulT Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 [quote user="Jay"][quote user="P2"]I try to keep to the speed limit - it might occasionally creep 1 or 2 mph above. However, I am sick and tired of other drivers who are right on my bumper trying to push me faster, i.e. exceed the speed limit. Others tooting etc.I also find it interesting that people feel it is OK to break the law for certain things. How do they feel about the person who has burgled their home - he is of the same mind 'OK to break the law for certain things'. In his case breaking in to your home and stealing your possessions. Paul[/quote]Hardly in the same league. Sounds like you advocate similar punishment for tailgaters as you would for burglars.[/quote]I did not mention punishments - I was writing about principles - the principles of 'I will obey some laws but not others'.I do not get intimidated by tailgaters, my speed remians the same. However, I can understand that some might and speed up. What concerns me is if something runs in to the road, whether a child or an animal, the natural instinct is to brake. Unfortunately, the person behind will not stop in time and hence a collision with the rear of my car which could result in injury. Still, I presume Jay that you think that is OK.Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnRoss Posted September 24, 2009 Author Share Posted September 24, 2009 How does this advice given to American drivers sit with you?.............JRhttp://www.wikihow.com/Avoid-Annoying-Other-Drivers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 [quote user="P2"]I do not get intimidated by tailgaters, my speed remians the same. However, I can understand that some might and speed up. What concerns me is if something runs in to the road, whether a child or an animal, the natural instinct is to brake. Unfortunately, the person behind will not stop in time and hence a collision with the rear of my car which could result in injury. Still, I presume Jay that you think that is OK.Paul[/quote]Why would you assume I would consider that OK? You write the most illogical drivel I have ever seen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 [quote user="JohnRoss"]How does this advice given to American drivers sit with you?.............JRhttp://www.wikihow.com/Avoid-Annoying-Other-Drivers[/quote]Oh I just love this one:If you inadvertently cause a situation that annoys other drivers,and they honk the horn or indicate their displeasure in some other way,do not gesture wildly, honk your own horn or jam thebrakes. Accept your short-lived punishment, indicate to the otherdriver that you are sorry for your infraction, and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnRoss Posted September 24, 2009 Author Share Posted September 24, 2009 Come on chaps, both have made meaningful comments and maybe misunderstood each other. Have a go at me if it helps! Yes Jay the pistol shot gesture to your own head seems to work or at least causes confusion. Mind you in the States they sometimes use real pistols!..........JR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyh4 Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 [quote user="JohnRoss"]It would, I think, be helpful to consider some of the points already made. ........it's safer to lift from the throttle, than brake.A point I have made and one only has to observe the actions of locals who know the position of fixed speed cameras and brake just before coming into the camera's range with the obvious risk of a tail shunt.JR[/quote] I have to disagree with you on that one JR. Momentary braking will alert the tailgater that he is about to to run into you unless he does something. Lifting your foot off the throttle, merely reduces the distance between your vehicles until he realises what is happening.And if he really is so close that even touchinh the brakes will cause a collision, then it does not matter what you do, he'll be riding inside your boot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnRoss Posted September 24, 2009 Author Share Posted September 24, 2009 Maybe I worded that badly. What you say is true but what I meant was that they are doing a bundle and then slam the anchors on just before the speed camera with the risk of the result you describe.....................JR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f1steveuk Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 "Tailgating" in France? Surely not! I'm sure on the average drive where we live, you would find several unknown Frenchmen in the boot, I'm convinced they attached their car to ours with an elastic band they drive so close........................ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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