CT : Procès-Verbal

[g8vkv]

Hello,

My (UK - French registered) car just sat its CT.

I got a few things "sans contre-visite", some of which puzzle me.

The offending items are ...

ROUE: Montage inadapté du pneumatique ARD ARG

PNEUMATIQUE: Usure irrégulière ARD ARG

Now, I understand what the phrases are saying, but I don't understand what they mean.

The two rear tyres are both Michelin Energy - same size and speed rating and quite old but

well within the wear limit and mounted with "outside" on the outside. There are no splits or

anything dodgy looking.

The only difference I can see is that their tread patterns are different.

I should have quizzed the guy more at the time, but I was so relieved it "passed" that

I just grabbed the papers and ran.

I intend to go back and speak to the chap more carefully, but if anyone can place me in

the ballpark of what these things mean, I'd be most grateful

[pachapapa]

If you take ROUE: Montage inadapté du pneumatique ARD ARG with no contre visite it will have an identification for example 5.3.3.6.

The identification code will have associated a number of alternatives.

Just open the link below and scroll down for 5.3.3.6 alternatives: idem the second tyre CT point.

http://www.controle-technique.org/points/533.htm

[pachapapa]

ARD is rear right, etc.

[Clair]

As Pachapapa mentions above:

ARD = arrière droit = right rear tyre

ARG = arrière gauche = left rear tyre

[allanb]

[quote user="g8vkv"]ROUE: Montage inadapté du pneumatique ARD ARG

PNEUMATIQUE: Usure irrégulière ARD ARG[/quote]

These phrases mean that the tyres are (a) badly fitted, and (b) unevenly worn.  Obviously these two things could be connected.

They don't mean that the tyres are the wrong size or rating for the car.

[pachapapa]

[quote user="allanb"][quote user="g8vkv"]ROUE: Montage inadapté du pneumatique ARD ARG
PNEUMATIQUE: Usure irrégulière ARD ARG[/quote]
These phrases mean that the tyres are (a) badly fitted, and (b) unevenly worn.  Obviously these two things could be connected.

They don't mean that the tyres are the wrong size or rating for the car.
[/quote]

Whilst uneven wear is fairly obvious; the " montage inadapté du pneumatique can mean several things in Contrôle technique jargon::

.3.3.3.6 SPECIFICATION

Montage inadapté (AVD. AVG. ARD. ARG.)  Sans contre visite

* Pneumatique tubeless monté sur jante tubeless avec chambre à air. * Pneumatique tubeless monté sur jante tube-type sans chambre à air. * Pneumatique tube-type monté sur jante tubeless avec chambre à air. * Présence d’une chambre à air dans un pneumatique de série 35 à 65. * Montage de pneumatique sur jante inadaptée. * Sens de rotation du pneumatique non conforme au marquage.

 

[Jimmy]

Why bother going back if it passed? Tread pattern should be the same on both wheels on the same axel, the French seem to have a thing about replacing tyres in pairs.

[Chancer]

The irregular wear assuming that the tyres have not come from another vehicle is indicative of a wheel alignment (tracking) fault although this hasnt shown up as excess ripage on the CT so is probably minor, some cars with power steering, or perhaps its the drivers, always seem to knock out the inside or outside edges of the tyres, over or under inflation can also produce uneven wear at the centre or edges.

Montage inadaptee could be any of the things mentioned by PP but i would also ask are your tyres directional (they will have an arrow showing the direction of rotation) they might be fitted on the wrong sides or as you have different tread patterns you may have two left or rigt ones, - worth a look but nothing to get excited about and not worth going back unless it will ease your anxiety.

Editted.

Tead pattern can be differnt on the same axle, tyres should be of the same type and construction but can be of different makes, the tyre fitters have their own distinctly commercial agenda.

The rolling diameter of the tyres should be within IIRC correctly 7% as this can affect ABS & AST systems but identical tyres would need one new and one bald to exceed this, having different makes on the same axle of differing but legal tread depths could just exceed this due to the different nominal sizes and tolerances.

I have always used part worn tyres, my car has passed CT with 4 different tyres but all of the same construction and size, it currently runs a pair of  Goodyear Eagle NCT's on the front that have different tread patterns.

[Jimmy]

"some cars with power steering, or perhaps it's the drivers, always seem

to knock out the inside or outside edges of the tyres, over or under

inflation can also produce uneven wear at the centre or edges."

On the back?

"but I would also ask are your tyres directional? (they will have an arrow

showing the direction of rotation) they might be fitted on the wrong

sides or as you have different tread patterns you may have two left or

right ones"

The OP already stated: "and mounted with "outside" on the outside"

[Chancer]

Ok you got me on the first point, I read AR as avant.

On the directional tyres could you not have them fitted to the wrong sides and therefore still have outside on the outsides but the wrong rotation?

Its really too late for me to get my brain in gear!

[AnOther]

Don't want to get into a prolonged debate but brand is pertinent.

In the following it's hard to interpret 'Manufacturers name or trademark' as meaning anything other than Brand;

http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/sectors/automotive/documents/directives/directive-92-23-eec_en.htm

Annex II (P16)

REQUIREMENTS FOR TYRES

1.DEFINITIONS

2. For the purposes of this Directive:

2.1. Type of tyre means a category of tyres which do not differ in such

essential respects as:

2.1.1. Manufacturers name or trademark;

2.1.2. Tyre-size designation;

2.1.3. Category of use:

If you then go down to section 3.2 (P72) it goes on to say:

3.2. Tyre fitment

3.2.1. All of the tyres fitted to a vehicle, excluding any temporary use

spare, must have the same structure (seeAnnexIIsection2.3).

3.2.2. All of the tyres fitted too one axle must be of the same type (see AnnexII section2.1)

[g8vkv]

Thanks for all the very useful information.

My problem wasn't with the translation - and I'd read about possible reasons, but still couldn't work it out.

The reason the two rear tyres are different is that in the car's early life one rear tyre got an irreparable puncture (nail near the sidewall) and it was replaced with the same make, but different tread pattern. As far as I know, these tyres aren't direction and are fitted properly.

Your comments got me thinking and I measured the tread depth on both rears. The older one is 2 point something mm. and the other 3 point something. I wonder if they considered this "uneven tyre wear"?

This being the case, I wonder also about the "status" of the faults "sans contre-visite". I mean supposed I was involved in an accident caused by a rear tyre blowout, would I be viewed as culpable if I hadn't bothered changing the tyres? I suppose I would, because they're classed as "défauts à corriger"

I suppose the bottom line is the older tyre is 6 years old and the newer probably 5 and new boots may not be such a bad idea.

Anyway, thanks for taking the trouble to reply.

[PaulT]

As far as I am aware, in the UK tyres must be the same on each axle. Different tread patterns will give different grip which could mean that a car will not stop in a straight line under emergency braking unless an attempt is made to correct it by steering.

Paul

[AnOther]

The document I linked to and quoted from is an EU directive and therefore applies equally in UK and France however, in common with many such things, local interpretations seems to vary.

Nowhere is tread pattern specifically mentioned. If it were that would effectively imply that tyres had to be identical and if that were the intent of the directive then it would say so.

In UK so long as the tyres are in roadworthy condition and not of mixed types on the same axle, i.e. cross ply and radial, they will pass an MOT without comment.

I agree that different tyres can present a hazard and personally, other than replacing a single tyre due to damage or an irrepairable puncture, I always replace mine in pairs or with a full set and also try to stick with the same specific tyre for consistency in handling and grip.

[Chancer]

ANother.

Nor do I want to get into a prolonged debate either but if as you have said you accept that different countries choose to interpret the EU document  in their own way and that the UK MOT test does not require tyres to be of anything other than the same type and construction why do you insist that the French CT centres require the same make and type of tyre?

I have questioned my CT man on this subject and he showed me his testers manual, after reading contradictory posts I asked him once again this January and he told me that nothing has changed in regard to tyres and once again showed me the manual.

I agree that all the tyre fitters trot out the party line to sell 2 tyres when only one is needed and it seems to be a 100% cartel in that regard, its interesting that there is at least some background to their assertions but they tell clients that it is the law and a car will not pass a CT like that which is absolutely untrue, I think it is the tyre fitting cartel that is responsible for most of the misinformation in this regard.

Most French people are of the same opinion including a 30 something motor mechanic in my diving club who likes to thik of his-self as the divine authority on all things to do with cars, I stood my ground against him on this one and the next week quoted him the text from the CT testers manual and invited him to verify it, he was then noticeably quiet on the subject so a couple of weeks later i asked him and he sheepishly admitted that I was correct.

I expect that he will come in one week triumphantly flourishing a copy of the EU directive [;-)]

[AnOther]

But I did not say 'not require' in relation to an MOT test did I, I simply said that even with a mix of odd tyres you would pass, which is true, however that does not alter the fact that the official EU policy clearly does require the same make (Brand) and type of tyre.

Reading the MOT rules on tyres the UK seems to have largely ignored the directive.

[Chancer]

So I ask again

"why do you insist that the French CT centres require the same make and type of tyre?"

My experience is that the French CT rules have also largely ignored the directive, and is an EU directive a law or even an obligation? doesnt it have to be applied into the law of the country? - sorry bad English I know!

I am not picking a fight, it may be that my CT tester does not use the latest manual or that your CT centres are trotting out the line of the tyre companies like my mechanic friend , I really would like to know.

[AnOther]

No fight but where have I said that I insisted that ?

Annecdotally some do and some don't in the same way that tyre outlets have different policies but according to the directive they should and AFAIK an EU directive is, with some qualifiers such as time scales for implementation and specific derogations, what says on the tin - a directive.

Is that what you mean by insisting ?

[pachapapa]

One should remember that an EU Directive requires a minimum compliance. If a "client" member state imposes a stricter regime then .... Hard luck Britty.

A good example is the You Kay government imposing roll bars on all tractors including of course 4 wheelers; when the relevant EU Directive only requires them on THREE WHEEL TRACTORS which the EU in their wisdom regard as being less stable and more likely to turn over.[6] 

[Chancer]

I have never seen a 3 wheel tractor, is that what the highly paid €urocrats spend their time imagining!

Objets with 3 legs or wheels or whatever form of support in 3's are the most stable, until motion enters into the equation.

ANO, I used insist incorrectly, I was probably thinking in French of avec insistence, repeatedly (as in on another forum also) would have been a better choice.

The day that my Bagnole has to have matching tyres for the CTwill be the day that it becomes an uneconomic repair or write off, it was by luck and in the UK that I found matching part worns, I have previously on two occasions bought part worn in France which were expensive by compariosn and only just legal but both the breakers yards assured me that I would not have a problem at CT.

So after the guy had written out the certificate at the next CT then I asked him in detail about the testing criteria, I hadnt at that stage discovered that knowledge was available on forums such as this one.

In hindsight how I didnt come to further grief in my first year in France from a complete lack of information can only be due to the fact that I have led a good life, I hadnt really used the net before coming to France other than to send e-mails whilst travelling and had thought that a forum was a chat room.

I really admire those that moved here before the advent of the net or living in France type magazines as I know they must have gone through much worse than I did.

 

[Salty Sam]

[quote user="pachapapa"]

A good example is the You Kay government imposing roll bars on all tractors including of course 4 wheelers; when the relevant EU Directive only requires them on THREE WHEEL TRACTORS which the EU in their wisdom regard as being less stable and more likely to turn over.[6] [/quote]

And the source of this snippet is .......?

[Chancer]

It must be true as I read it on a forum.

[pachapapa]

[quote user="Salty Sam"][quote user="pachapapa"]

A good example is the You Kay government imposing roll bars on all tractors including of course 4 wheelers; when the relevant EU Directive only requires them on THREE WHEEL TRACTORS which the EU in their wisdom regard as being less stable and more likely to turn over.[6] [/quote]

And the source of this snippet is .......?

[/quote]

Monsieur le garde-champêtre chez la mairie.

[IMG]http://www.le-yull.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/garde_champetre_confolens.jpg[/IMG]

[Salty Sam]

[quote user="Chancer"]It must be true as I read it on a forum.[/quote]

[:D] That's a fact Chancer. [:D]