Re-registering a car in the UK, urgent query

[nectarine]

Hi there, I've read the 'sticky' on this subject but would appreciate some advice quite urgently.

Some friends of mine own a motorhome, originally registered in the UK and registered in France for about four years. Unfortunately the husband died at the weekend and his widow wants to sell the motorhome - really needs the cash.

They'd already advertised it in France but no joy. A relative is coming over for the funeral this week and has offered to drive it back to the UK (it's RH drive) and put it back on UK plates and sell it there.

the questions:

Carte Grise is currently registered to the deceased husband. Getting the papers transferred to the widow by the end of this week is impossible, just no time. However - and please don't shout at me for this! - she does a good impression of his signature and therefore could sign any documents so that the relative can sell the van.

However, I understand that there's plenty of forms to be filled in the UK and perhaps she's better off transferring the vehicle to this relative who then takes ownership of it fully and can therefore re-register the van without having to send documents back and forth to France.

But to transfer/sell a vehicle in France requires a visit to the Prefecture, doesn't it? And the relative is flying in on the morning of the funeral, staying for the day, and driving off in the evening. There will be no time at all to transfer.

So please, thinking caps on. What is the best, and easiest way, for my friend to 'dispose' of the vehicle to her brother so that he has free licence to return to the UK, register it, sign all the papers and sell it and send her the money (much needed). I'm sure there's a proper way, but I'm open to suggestions on how this could be achieved (PM me). And, yes, we'd all prefer to do things by the book but this could take months. She has a one-off opportunity to get the vehicle back to England and really doesn't want the hassle or the paperwork since she's only been widowed for a couple of days.

Thanks for all replies.

[Will]

Having registered a vehicle in England that was originally English, transferred to France, transferred to new owners (us) and shortly afterwards re-exported to England I can assure you it is possible, though potentially expensive. And if you have details of its original UK index number, and this hasn't been cancelled or re-allocated, that will make it much easier.

The big problem in this case is that, as a private sale, it can only be registered in England to the same person to whom it was last registered in France. As this is impossible for obvious reasons, the registration will have to first be transferred to the new owner in France. In the case of a motorhome, the new French carte grise is likely to be costly, particularly as it's only going to be needed for a very short time. It was dear enough even for a Clio to get a carte grise for a few weeks only.

As the new owner doesn't have a French address, then the first transfer looks impossible anyway, and certainly not possible in the required timescale. Further complications are that the headlights and maybe one or two other items will need to be changed back from French to English, and as it's over three years old it will need an MoT in UK which could be difficult with a French registered vehicle.

Maybe the best bet is for your friend to sell it to a specialist dealer, because the transfer should then become somewhat simpler.

[AnOther]

[quote user="Will"]The big problem in this case is that, as a private sale, it can only be registered in England to the same person to whom it was last registered in France.[/quote]

Is that really so ?

DVLA guidelines say nothing about the old registration document being in your name and why shouldn't it be the same as in France where a sales invoice or receipt (cough) is all that is required ?

http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/@motor/documents/digitalasset/dg_199220.pdf

To need the registration in your name would be regarded as an (illegal ?) impediment to free movement as it would effectively mean that you could never personally import a vehicle from a country in which you were not, or had not, been resident in order to register it there.

[nectarine]

Thanks for the replies. Another thought ... if she transferred ownership to her brother while he's over, just to make it easier, would the new owner actually have to go to the Prefecture or can it all be done by post?

[AnOther]

She won't be able to transfer it anywhere or to anyone because it isn't registered in her name, that's the whole point isn't it ?

Also, unless the brother is French resident, then he can't register a vehicle in France anyway so that plan simply doesn't work on any level.

I believe you may be able to re-register online now but it's moot because of the above.

Eventually she should get a release of some sort but that will undoubtedly take time as you say.

TBH if it were me I would get it back to UK whilst you have the opportunity, French registration and all.

There is a lesson here, register your vehicles in joint names then this problem does not arise.

[nectarine]

Thank you for that. I guess that's good advice, just get it back to the UK and then sort it out from there.

I didn't realise that a vehicle could be registered in two names .... that would make a heck of a difference (especially for us, as we have several cars here). I'll look into that.

Meanwhile, thanks again for helpful comments.

[Sunday Driver]

Simple solution is to follow the normal procedure which has been designed to take into account a situation like this.

 

The relative picks up the motorhome during his brief visit for the funeral and takes it back to the UK.

 

The wife asks the notaire who is handling the succession to provide her with an attestation confirming the carte grise holder is deceased and that the wife has inherited the vehicle as part of the estate.

 

The wife then follows the normal change of ownership procedure by applying for a carte grise in her name, ie with the old carte grise, CT certificate, passport and utility bill, plus the notaire's attestation which takes the place of the usual certificat de cession as proof of transfer of  ownership. Where the inheritor is the spouse of the deceased, then other than the standard 6,50€ admin/postage, there is no charge for the carte grise.

 

Finally, the wife sends her new carte grise to the relative together with a letter passing title to him so that he can visit his local DVLA office and register the motorhome in his name.

 

 

[Will]

Unfortunately the 'normal procedure' is not achievable in the quick, post-funeral timescale required in this case. Although the SD version of it might well work in practice, as the law currently stands the new owner would technically not be allowed to drive the vehicle in UK until it was registered to him, and as a UK resident he cannot legally drive a French-registered vehicle.

As I said, in our own case which was much simpler, we still needed to get a carte grise in our names, which had to be paid for despite only being needed for a short time, and in itself took several days, and wouldn't be possible if the new owner didn't have a French address. In our case DVLA needed a carte grise showing the correct owner, not a carte grise in the previous owner's name and a letter, which could have been written by anybody. DVLA also needed proof - i.e. receipts - that the headlamps had been changed back even though a new MoT certificate was also required.

The quick and simple way is to just pay for it, drive it back, and sort out what DVLA requires from England. But that will not work if PC Plod decided to poke the long nose of the law into it, as we have seen from previous cases on this forum.

[nectarine]

Sunday Driver and Will - thank you both very much for your helpful advice.

My friend is seeing the notaire this afternoon - he's very sympathetic and helpful. The 'testament' is very easy - only marriage for both, no children, so the succession is not complicated. Therefore I think he will do everything to help in making this easier for her.

However, the carte grise - she will need the original to get it changed to her name. But her relative will need a copy to drive it back to the UK.

Should she ask the notaire to make a photocopy and mark it as a certified copy (in case the relative is stopped on French roads). Perhaps the notaire could also do a letter saying that my friend who is the new, but as yet uncertificated, owner has given her brother authority to drive, etc.,

What do you think? I'm sure we're on the right track here. I just have a few days to work through the mechanics of who has what documents.

Once in England the relative isn't too far from the port and can get the vehicle in his drive, then work on headlights (but surely he can put those light-diverting strips on the headlights in the meantime as a temporary measure?).

What do you both think?

And, again, I am very grateful for your knowledge and advice. My friend isn't on this forum but I mentioned that I was asking here, and she asked me to thank the contributors.

[Sunday Driver]

[quote user="Will"]Unfortunately the 'normal procedure' is not achievable in the quick, post-funeral timescale required in this case. Although the SD version of it might well work in practice, as the law currently stands the new owner would technically not be allowed to drive the vehicle in UK until it was registered to him, and as a UK resident he cannot legally drive a French-registered vehicle.

 

The relative can certainly drive the motorhome from the ferry port to his home without problem.  He can also drive it to and from a MOT testing station.  He needs to do this before he can apply for his V5C.  Outside of those two trips, he merely stores the vehicle off road until his new V5C arrives in the post.  He's then free to sell the motorhome.  Normal procedure works fine.

 

As I said, in our own case which was much simpler, we still needed to get a carte grise in our names, which had to be paid for despite only being needed for a short time, and in itself took several days, and wouldn't be possible if the new owner didn't have a French address. In our case DVLA needed a carte grise showing the correct owner, not a carte grise in the previous owner's name and a letter, which could have been written by anybody. DVLA also needed proof - i.e. receipts - that the headlamps had been changed back even though a new MoT certificate was also required.

 

Like anyone else living in the UK who imports a French registered vehicle, the relative will only have the French carte grise in the name of the previous owner and a document proving he now owns the vehicle, such as a certificat de cession - or even a handwritten receipt.  How would the DVLA expect a UK resident to obtain a carte grise in his own name?

Let's not make a simple process complicated.... [;-)]  

 

The quick and simple way is to just pay for it, drive it back, and sort out what DVLA requires from England. But that will not work if PC Plod decided to poke the long nose of the law into it, as we have seen from previous cases on this forum.
[/quote]

[Sunday Driver]

[quote user="nectarine"]However, the carte grise - she will need the original to get it changed to her name. But her relative will need a copy to drive it back to the UK. Should she ask the notaire to make a photocopy and mark it as a certified copy (in case the relative is stopped on French roads). Perhaps the notaire could also do a letter saying that my friend who is the new, but as yet uncertificated, owner has given her brother authority to drive, etc., What do you think? I'm sure we're on the right track here.

[/quote]

Sounds good to me.

 

[AnOther]

But what is the point ?

We know the aim is to dispose of the vehicle ASAP and in that endeavour the UK is seen as the preferred option.

We already know that to register it there all the brother (or anyone for that matter) will need is the carte grise and a receipt of some sort so what is the point of going through a French change of ownership first ?

Let's not make a simple process complicated....[;-)]

[Will]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]

Like anyone else living in the UK who imports a French registered vehicle, the relative will only have the French carte grise in the name of the previous owner and a document proving he now owns the vehicle, such as a certificat de cession - or even a handwritten receipt.  How would the DVLA expect a UK resident to obtain a carte grise in his own name?

Let's not make a simple process complicated.... [;-)]  

[/quote]

I can assure you it's not me who is making a simple process complicated. What I say is based on actual experience. The DVLA - at least the office we used - needs a registration document to prove ownership. It doesn't recognise French certificats de cession, receipts or anything else. It would be lovely if SD was right and the DVLA wrong... [:D] but I wouldn't like to see the buyer of this motorhome stuck with a vehicle that can't be legally registered, similar to the fate of buyers in France of UK-registered vehicles that have not been properly exported.

It's just one of those situations for which the standard procedure isn't really designed; you should be able to bend the rules and sensible officials and law enforcers would probably help you get round the problem, but not all can be guaranteed to turn a blind eye. Motorhomes at ferry ports are a prime target for watchful immigration people, unfortunately. That's all I can say on the subject.

[nectarine]

Thanks for all information. Well I took the plunge and phoned the DVLA and found a very helpful chap. Explained the situation and this is their advice:

Brother can drive the vehicle back to the UK (as long as he's got some insurance etc). Back in the UK he can drive it directly to his home and park it offroad.

It doesn't matter that he isn't the registered keeper on the French doc, but he applies for form V55/5 from the DVLA (by post, can't be downloaded from their website). He completes this, stating he is the new owner, and submits it to the local DVLA office with the French carte grise, some identification, proof of insurance and an MOT (both of which can be obtained using the vehicles VIN number) and the process takes about 48-72 hours. Often the original number can be reallocated back, so they suggested hunting around for the original number plates. There is no tax to pay as the vehicle was of UK origin.

My next query is:

The carte grise ... what does one have to fill in to say that one is 'exporting' the car? The DVLA require the carte grise, but does the Prefecture need any portion of it, or is there a form that one might have to complete? If the carte grise has to be returned to the Prefecture then that could be the hassle but I'd be grateful for someone telling me the exact procedure.

Thanks again, I do appreciate your time and advice.

[AnOther]

When taking the vehicle to UK you don't have to tell the prefecture anything.

Register the car in UK as advised by DVLA.

In due course, but within 2 months of the change, DVLA will send the carte grise back to France. They will record the car as exported and that is the end of it !

Assuming it's the 1st carte grise the car has had then the original UK number should be on it, it will also be on the 1st CT if that was done when it was on it's original UK plates.

[nectarine]

Thank you very much, all of you who responded. That has cleared up the matter for me and I'm confident about what to do.

I really appreciate that you take the time to reply and share your knowledge.

Big thanks.

Nectarine