dave21478 Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 Something is currently tickling my fancy on Ebay - its in Spain and Spanish registered. Now, once I have it here, its the usual rigmarole - C of C, Quittus Fiscal etc etc.....but what are the steps for actually BUYING the car in Spain. I see many Ebay auctions stating that the car can only be sold to someone with a NIE number and other proofs of residency, but what about selling to someone taking it out of the country permanently? Standing on the sellers doorstep, handing over the notes, what steps do I need to be taking so that it legally becomes mine and that it is de-registered from the previous owners responsibilities? Is there a Spanish version of checking a car is not "gage" preferably online so I don't buy something with outstanding finance or many parking tickets/unpaid taxes etc? I have spent an afternoon faffing with google and not found any definitive answers, but plenty of horror stories.It should be noted that I don't Hablo Espanol and just want to fly down, pay cash, sign some forms and be on my way but legally and with no comebacks or the swamp-dragon in my local prefecture saying "ah, but you dont have xyz, I cant process the dossier" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Théière Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 Dave, cant help with the red tape side of things but paying in cash maybe risky compared to using a card or paypal which may give you some protection should something be amiss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIG MAC Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 [quote user="dave21478"]Something is currently tickling my fancy on Ebay - its in Spain and Spanish registered. Now, once I have it here, its the usual rigmarole - C of C, Quittus Fiscal etc etc.....but what are the steps for actually BUYING the car in Spain. I see many Ebay auctions stating that the car can only be sold to someone with a NIE number and other proofs of residency, but what about selling to someone taking it out of the country permanently? Standing on the sellers doorstep, handing over the notes, what steps do I need to be taking so that it legally becomes mine and that it is de-registered from the previous owners responsibilities? Is there a Spanish version of checking a car is not "gage" preferably online so I don't buy something with outstanding finance or many parking tickets/unpaid taxes etc? I have spent an afternoon faffing with google and not found any definitive answers, but plenty of horror stories. It should be noted that I don't Hablo Espanol and just want to fly down, pay cash, sign some forms and be on my way but legally and with no comebacks or the swamp-dragon in my local prefecture saying "ah, but you dont have xyz, I cant process the dossier"[/quote]Not wanting to be a prophet of doom..but if you factor costs of flights, fuel back in an unknown vehicle (tax? ie TVA if applicable), time and the risk of after all best laid plans something not being right.....You wont take the thing back to Spain I would imagine.It would really need to be something special before I was tempted ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave21478 Posted November 11, 2012 Author Share Posted November 11, 2012 I am well used to buying cars "blind" via ebay and the costs and risks involved with flights and return fuel costs from UK. On average, I fly to UK twice a year specifically to return with a vehicle purchased online and in over a dozen purchases, have never lost out. Spain will be little different - actually a tad cheaper as although the distances are similar there are lower fuel costs and no ferry to pay.Its a used car from the EU so no TVA to pay and the purchase cost is about 40% lower than buying the same car in France. I could buy the same model much cheaper still in UK, but it would be RHD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave21478 Posted November 12, 2012 Author Share Posted November 12, 2012 Nobody?I have asked the seller via Ebay and he "thinks" it's just a case of de-registering it with the Trafico. However, as the chap who wants to sell his car, he is potentially not too bothered about the accuracy of his information and any potential problems for me further down the line, so some confirmation would be nice.Looks like I might have to find a Spanish forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancer Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Sorry but no, and I dont know anyone to ask, I would be interested in wht you find out though Dave, good luck with this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 I helped a little with somebody who bought a car from Germany a few years back.What I do remember is you get a form here in France which you take with you. It has to be signed by you and the seller and you need all the Spanish documentation and of course the letter of conformity. We 'walked' the documents round the prefecture, we spent more time sitting and waiting to be seen than it took to do the deed. I can't remember how we got the form, I believe the person I was helping printed it off an official French website. Sorry to be a bit vague, its a long time ago but hope it helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBC65 Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 From this website it looks pretty similar to the system here in France (Google translate will help): http://dgt.es/portal/es/oficina_virtual/vehiculos/cambio_titularidad/Just out of interest, Dave, did you ask UK sellers for the full V5 when you bought cars to bring to France or did you just wait for the V5 to come back from DVLA (with a "sorry, we can't register this vehicle to you at an address outside the UK" letter). Also, did you get them to complete and sign the "déclaration de cession d'un véhicule" forms? I ask only because we are likely to be buying a used car in UK soon and last time we did I had a bit of challenge getting it through at the Préfecture, partly due to a scribbled 'receipt' from the seller.Good luck with the Spanish import.CBC65 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnOther Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 I'm not sure that registering a car from Spain will be any different to one from anywhere else.The NIE number is only relevant to re-registering in Spain.My current car was bought in UK but was still on Belgian plates - I subsequently discovered that according to Belgian procedures these should have been surrendered when the car was exported to UK - but despite that I had no problems at all registering it here. It was no different to registering a UK car. I also got French insurance for it plus the box trailer I was bringing over from UK at the same time, all done over the phone/fax with the VIN and Belgian registration number.For some local info you might try signing up here then going to the Spanish section;http://britishexpats.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave21478 Posted November 12, 2012 Author Share Posted November 12, 2012 [quote user="CBC65"]From this website it looks pretty similar to the system here in France (Google translate will help): http://dgt.es/portal/es/oficina_virtual/vehiculos/cambio_titularidad/Just out of interest, Dave, did you ask UK sellers for the full V5 when you bought cars to bring to France or did you just wait for the V5 to come back from DVLA (with a "sorry, we can't register this vehicle to you at an address outside the UK" letter). Also, did you get them to complete and sign the "déclaration de cession d'un véhicule" forms? I ask only because we are likely to be buying a used car in UK soon and last time we did I had a bit of challenge getting it through at the Préfecture, partly due to a scribbled 'receipt' from the seller.Good luck with the Spanish import.CBC65[/quote]Its rare to find a UK seller willing to let the whole V5 go, so I re-register the car in my own name as normal at a UK address I have access to. When the V5 arrives, I have it posted out to me here in France and the whole re-registration process in France becomes much simpler as I have no need for sales receipts, Certificate de Cession etc etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave21478 Posted November 12, 2012 Author Share Posted November 12, 2012 AnOther - yes, re-registration will be no different at all, I just need to find out the procedure for actually buying the car from a Spanish seller, what paperwork I have to do to satisfy them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
just john Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Sunday Driver may have sold up and moved on, but perhaps he still receives his e-mails? worth a shot perhaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnOther Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Is he the expert on selling a car in Spain as well then ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
just john Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 I believe he demonstrated a good knowledge of European Vehicle registration regulation, and imported his own vehicles to France, surely worth an ask perhaps . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomoss Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 I imported two spanish registered cars into France in 2008 and 2009. I still owned property in Spain, so could still own spanish registered cars.I went to the traffic department with the documents - Ficha Tecnica and Permiso de Circulacion - and filled out forms for each saying I wanted to export them.The owner of the vehicle, or a Gestor acting for him, has to do this in person. You cannot buy a spanish car in order to do this yourself unless you have an address in Spain, similarly to France.Once one has queued and eventually arrives at the guichet, everything is done there and then - licences and other paperwork are all printed out on the spot, a big plus compared with here.They were returned to me with something like "Exported within the EU" stamped across them. The Ficha Tecnica is just a description of the vehicle, and does not have details of the owner, The owner is registered on the Permiso.I believe that if the seller does the above, gives the stamped documents to you, and makes out a bill of sale to you, you should be able to register the car here.If the seller is spanish, or speaks spanish well enough, he can check this himself in "Trafico" - this is an office, actually a large building, operated by the Guardia Civil. Unfortunately there is only one for each Province, in its capital city.Of course, it's quite possible it's all changed since 2009, so best to check with Trafico. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnOther Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 All of that seems to apply to the transfer of ownership in Spain between Spanish residents prior to export however I' ll still very happily put my money on French prefectures not giving a fig about any of it and registering a Spanish registered car in exactly the same way they would a UK one. For them to act otherwise would demand an intimate knowledge of the export documentation procedures for each and every EU country.In the real world there is little or no need for the individual to 'export' a vehicle from anywhere as ultimately, and under EU rules, authorities in the new state of registration are obliged to inform the authorities in the previous state of registration of the change within 2 months of the event which of course is absolute and indisputable evidence and proof of export. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomoss Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 AnOther, you seem to delight in finding fault with other peoples' posts.There was no mention whatsoever of transfer of ownership between spanish residents in my post. I exported two cars we had owned for years.Maybe you should start by actually reading posts before you criticise them.I outlined the procedure I would suggest for the owner to follow to remove the car from the spanish system, as the OP said the owner was not sure about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomoss Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 It is a good idea to formally export a car from Spain, as that is a legal requirement there. Quite probably that is why they have a procedure for it.As for the french authorites informing the previous state within 2 months, We were billed for road tax for the cars, collected by the local authority, not the state, and debited from our bank account, well over a year after they were registered in France.Fortunately, having followed the export procedure we had proof of this in the form of the stamped duplicate of the export notification form, so were able to show this to the town hall and get the tax refunded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnOther Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 Not a question of taking delight in anything, there was room for misinterpretation in your post and I apologise if I read it the wrong way.That there are procedures for certain things only means exactly that, it says nothing as to how important they are in the real world. The proper 'procedure' for exporting a car from UK for instance is to surrender the V5 in exchange for a certificate of permanent export but every single one of us who have successfully registered cars with the V5, the vast majority I would suggest, is testament the real world value of that.If you take a French registered car back to the UK there is 'procedure' and form for that but in the real world you can simply drive it there and present yourself at a DVLA office the next and register it with nothing more than the carte grise, a C of C perhaps, an MOT, and a cheque book. The lack of the French forms will in no way hamper or impede that.Dave want's to fly down, flash the cash, and drive it back, and since he has no connections with Spain, and the car will not be in his name there, I don't really see how your unfortunate experience with back taxes, for your supposedly officially 'procedured' exported cars too, is particularly relevant to that scenario. If the Spanish seller gets it wrong then that is entirely his lookout, how is that possibly going to come back to Dave ?The fact that the export and import for your cars had not been properly followed through would seem to suggest that either the French, the Spanish, or both, have scant regard for the 'procedures' either [;-)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomoss Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 For the benefit of the seller, here are the regulations for "bajas" of vehicles (retirement from circulation) in Spainhttp://www.dgt.es/portal/es/oficina_virtual/vehiculos/bajas/b) Por traslado del vehículo a otro país (exportación) For moving the vehicle to another country (exportation)Se trata del supuesto en el que el titular de un vehículo ha decidido su traslado al extranjero, causando por tanto baja en el Registro español de vehículos. This is the case in which the owner of a vehicle has decided to take it abroad, thus causing removal from the spanish Register of vehicles.La baja se realiza en las Jefaturas de Tráfico (o a través de un Gestor Administrativo). Para ello deberás aportar:The removal is made en the Traffic Headquarters (or by way of an Administrative Gestor). For this you must bring: - Solicitud, debidamente rellenada Request, duly signed - Documentación del vehículo (permiso de circulación y tarjeta de inspección técnica) Vehicle documentation (Circulation Permit and Technical Inspection Card) - Tasa de baja Tax for removal - (8€) - Documentación fiscal correspondiente Personal identification. - (For vehicles being exported outside the EU, a declaration that the vehicle is not scrap) Maybe the french authorities will send the car's papers to Spain, but I don't think Trafico will "baja" the vehicle without the above procedure.Also, I believe the french authorities will expect to see the overstamping on the vehicles documents and corresponding documents to establish it has been properly exported from Spain before they register it in France. They asked me for these. I don't believe EU regulations override established procedures which apply to all EU citizens, whether or not residents of a particular country.I believe in fact that an export declaration in UK for cars from there is officially required in France, which is often overlooked, but sometimes required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomoss Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 [quote user="AnOther"]Not a question of taking delight in anything, there was room for misinterpretation in your post and I apologise if I read it the wrong way. I don't agree, "nit picker" comes to mind. You do seem to "misinterpret" posts more frequently than you understand them.That there are procedures for certain things only means exactly that, it says nothing as to how important they are in the real world. That statement doesn't really agree with your frequent pronounciations on people who drive UK registered cars in France, in the real world, without the slightest problem. It seems you believe you can pick and choose which EU rules you follow.The proper 'procedure' for exporting a car from UK for instance is to surrender the V5 in exchange for a certificate of permanent export but every single one of us who have successfully registered cars with the V5, the vast majority I would suggest, is testament the real world value of that. I don't agree with that either. I am sure that I have read posts on this forum or others from people who have had exactly the problem of no export certificate, and had to write to DVLA to get one. Maybe unfortunate they didn't happen to be in the "vast majority".If you take a French registered car back to the UK there is 'procedure' and form for that but in the real world you can simply drive it there and present yourself at a DVLA office the next and register it with nothing more than the carte grise, a C of C perhaps, an MOT, and a cheque book. The lack of the French forms will in no way hamper or impede that. That's very interesting, but the subject is registering a spanish car in France.Dave want's to fly down, flash the cash, and drive it back, and since he has no connections with Spain, and the car will not be in his name there, I don't really see how your unfortunate experience with back taxes, for your supposedly officially 'procedured' exported cars too, is particularly relevant to that scenario.You didn't get the message again. There was no "problem" with back taxes. The local council collected the taxes by DD from my bank because of the huge (normal) delays in information getting from government down to local level. This is analagous to the delays in France of information on property ownership reaching the right department for the imposition of property taxes. The point of the story is that because I had followed the correct procedure I was able to get the records amended and the tax money refunded. If the Spanish seller gets it wrong then that is entirely his lookout, how is that possibly going to come back to Dave ? I don't agree with your attitude on that.The fact that the export and import for your cars had not been properly followed through would seem to suggest that either the French, the Spanish, or both, have scant regard for the 'procedures' either The procedures do work, but slowly, in both countries, as I'm quite sure you are aware, but if they are not followed, there can be repercussions, sooner or later.[;-)][/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnOther Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 These are the rules for registering a car in another state:Quote:For vehicles previously registered in another Member State, the receiving country may only request: the roadworthiness certificate, the EC or national certificate of conformity, the original or a copy of the non-harmonised registration certificate issued in another Member State, the harmonised registration certificate, the insurance certificate and proof of payment of the VAT.http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/internal_market/single_market_for_goods/motor_vehicles/interactions_industry_policies/l24283_en.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomoss Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 [quote user="AnOther"]These are the rules for registering a car in another state:Quote:For vehicles previously registered in another Member State, the receiving country may only request: the roadworthiness certificate, the EC or national certificate of conformity, the original or a copy of the non-harmonised registration certificate issued in another Member State, the harmonised registration certificate, the insurance certificate and proof of payment of the VAT.http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/internal_market/single_market_for_goods/motor_vehicles/interactions_industry_policies/l24283_en.htm[/quote]Yes, BUT, we are (or I thought we are) discussing requirements for exporting a spanish vehicle.The above document says nothing about the requirements of the country of origin regarding removal of the vehicle from its Registry of vehicles.The fact that nothing is said about this would seem to imply that it is up to each State to make its own rules about this, whether or not the original documents will eventually be forwarded to their country of origin.I really don't know why you are making such a fuss about a spanish procedure you didn't know about. Maybe because you didn't know about it?[6] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunday Driver Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 [quote user="AnOther"]The proper 'procedure' for exporting a car from UK for instance is to surrender the V5 in exchange for a certificate of permanent export but every single one of us who have successfully registered cars with the V5, the vast majority I would suggest, is testament the real world value of that.No, the proper 'procedure' for exporting a car from the UK is to complete the notification of export slip, send it off to the DVLA and retain the rest of the V5C for registration in France. Every single one of us who has successfully registered their car with the V5C have simply followed the 'real world' correct procedure.If you take a French registered car back to the UK there is 'procedure' and form for that but in the real world you can simply drive it there and present yourself at a DVLA office the next and register it with nothing more than the carte grise, a C of C perhaps, an MOT, and a cheque book. The lack of the French forms will in no way hamper or impede that.No you can't. If the car is less than ten years old, then in the 'real world' you are required to provide the UK Vehicle Certification Agency with evidence that the vehicle has been modified to comply with UK Construction and Use regulations so that you can obtain the necessary Mutual Recognition Certificate that the DVLA require before they will register the vehicle.As you appear to demonstrate little understanding of the UK procedures, your comments about Spanish procedures are likely to be far less reliable than that of Nomoss....[8-)][/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancer Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 Its not hard to see why Dave21478 doesn't bother (much) with this forum any more!Which is a shame as I enjoy reading of his exploits and would like to know the remainder of the restaurant saga, in his shoes though I dont think that I would be posting it on this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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