Big problem encountered when selling French house

[227duke]

Hello all. I have a big problem that I hope I San find sone help with. I make no apology for posting this question on other forums, as I have to maximise my chances of finding a solution.

My wife and I are trying to sell our French house in upper Normandy. We were this week at the point of signing the compromis de vente , when we were informed by our estate agent that a ban had been placed upon any building work at our property due to the findings of a survey (Recensement des indices des cavites souterraines) which had found a suspected marl pit workings in our next door neighbour's garden. The survey was apparently carried out in 2009 at the behest of the local canton or possibly the local mairie, although this was the first we knew of it. My understanding is that there was no physical check, but that a contractor company was asked to review old area documents. A document dated 1908 was used to determine that there was some sort of works in the next door garden, which it was felt may have been a marl pit - although it looks as if it could equally have been a well. Our estate agent is of the view that it would have been unlikely to be a marl pit, due to its proximity to the house, which is very old. In any event, a 60 metre radius prohibition on building work has been placed, which includes most of our land. We haven't spoken to our neighbours yet, although I know that their entire property is affected, as is the case with some other near neighbours. Whilst I am aware that there is a good deal of beaurocracy in France, I am staggered that such a draconian measure can be applied to individual's properties, with all the implications for future enjoyment and resale values, based on ancient line drawings made mainly by people who are long dead. It is not even known what is represented by some of the plans on the map - there seems to have just been an assumption that it may be a marl pit. Is there anything that we can do to challenge the ban and the 'survey' findings? It seems to me to have been an entirely arbitrary prohibition based on extremely old and very possibly inaccurate maps of the area. Needless to say, it looks very much like our buyer is about to pull out of the purchase due to worries about the alleged marl pit and the effect of the survey and prohibition on future buyers of the house. We feel very aggrieved by the whole situation, particularly as we were not informed of any survey or prohibition having been placed. I appreciate the problems that can result from a collapse of such a pit where they exist, and that the area of Haute Normandie is particularly affected by this type of workings. But I am not at all convinced that there is in fact a pit there, and that a building ban is a lazy way of 'playing safe' without bothering to check the reality of the situation.

I hope someone can give us done advice on this or share their own experiences.

[EuroTrash]

Surely this is a situation you need to be sorting out with officialdom. I would have thought the first thing to do would be to go and talk to the urbanisme person at the mairie. For instance would it not be possible for you to pay for a proper survey to be done of your land to establish once and for all what is underneath? Rather than sitting there feeling aggrieved, go and find out if there are any balls you can set rolling. There may be a set procedure to follow to get the ban lifted, but until you ask, you won't know.

[NickP]

When you say no building work; does that mean no repairs or renovation to the existing building or no developement of the land? Also when you bought the house did you not ask about the "plans" on the map? The obvious answer I'm afraid is going to cost you money, so apart from your Notaire; what do they say? maybe you should seek legal advice.Sorry to seem negative but I really don't think that members of a forum can answer your questions. I hope the problem gets resolved to your satisfaction.

[idun]

I would have been far too busy calling my Mairie, the DDT, maybe even a Geometre and the Prefecture to have even posted and I'm sure if I could

have thought of anyone else, have called them too.

So they are my suggestions.

I

would also want to know why I was not informed properly at the time, or

maybe this was in the local rag that the council sends out as it

affected several properties, or even on the Mairies information board.

Which should have all planning application information on it as well as

other general information. And maybe that was all they were obliged to

do. I would still want to know.

[Alan Zoff]

I see you joined the forum in 2009, the same year as the survey. Was that also the year you bought the house? If so, I wonder if the notaire was obliged to enquire about such things and to inform you about it. Perhaps you have some claim against him? Had your vendor any prior knowledge?

[Val_2]

If this were my problem I would not mess around with the local mairie, notaire,DDE or prefecture but go straight to a specialist avocat dealing in such matters because I think it may be your only solution to sort this out.Government officials just pass the buck or file your dossier in a drawer until they decide to have a look at it but an avocat, and you can have a first free consultation, has more clout and can write a stiff letter demanding some action etc. Whatever you do, its going to cost but pay those who canhelp you and not fanny around with lesser mortals!

[EuroTrash]

Still think it would be worth checking that there isn't a simple solution. I got the impression the OP hasn't talked to any local bods at all yet. I would at least ask at the mairie,face to face not by writing a letter which as you say will probably be ignored, and if they can't or won't help, then by all means pay a professional, But sledgehammers and flies and all that.

The lady in charge of our urbanisme section is truly formidable, whatever you ask her she can answer on the spot, never needs to look anything up. Once you get her on your side, she tells you what to do and you do it and you're sorted.

[ventodue]

While I can understand the OP's concern, I also find it remarkable that in less than 2 minutes of research on Tinternet I can discover more about the  background to this than the OP seems to know [:-))].

http://www.seine-maritime.equipement.gouv.fr/le-recensement-d-indices-de-a2454.html

So, feeling 'very aggrieved by the whole situation particularly as we were not informed of any survey or prohibition having been placed'; and being 'staggered that such a draconian measure can be applied to individual's properties, with all the implications for future enjoyment and resale values, based on ancient line drawings made mainly by people who are long dead etc etc.' does seem somewhat misplaced [8-)] [kiss].

Btw, similar pieces of research, which have the laudable purpose of assisting development decisions, are also normal in the UK. Two examples I am aware of are old mine workings in Derbyshire and swallow holes in Hertfordshire.

[Alan Zoff]

I'm surprised the OP is being given a fair bit of stick over this. He made it clear that he was making lots of enquiries and just wanted to make sure he wasn't missing anything. Makes sense to me to look at things from several angles before committing yourself to a particular line.

Hopefully, however, between the barbs he has been able to glean some useful pointers. It's certainly not a position in which I would want to find myself and I hope it works out for them.

[NickP]

I don't see any stick or barbs at all, everyone is offering advice to the best of their knowledge. I can't build on my land, but I knew this before we bought and made the decision to go ahead anyway. Also if the OP was that concerned; he/she might I would have thought come back and addressed some of the questions that people trying to help had raised. I wonder if there is a sub plot here?

[ventodue]

[quote user="Alan Zoff"]I'm surprised the OP is being given a fair bit of stick over this. He made it clear that he was making lots of enquiries ..[/quote]

Really, Alan?  The only person he says he has talked to is his estate agent.  (And we all know what their opinions are worth [6]...)  He concedes he hasn't spoken to the neighbours, and then throws out, " Is there anything that we can do to challenge the ban and the 'survey' findings?".  And that's the request that people have responded to.

[quote user="Alan Zoff"] It's certainly not a position in which I would want to find myself and I hope it works out for them.[/quote]

Certainly.  But I hope you will agree that it wouldn't have hurt to have done some basic background research before throwing out terms like 'draconian', 'arbitrary', 'lazy' - and "I'm staggered" and "We feel very aggrieved". 

[EuroTrash]

It's natural that the OP is upset if he foresees the sale falling through because of a totally unexpected hitch. But I still strongly feel that the OP should start by digging out all the information that is easily available locally, so that at least he knows who carried out the study and why, and is it under the auspices of the commune, the department or was it a national edict, so that he has some concept of what he's up against. If he rushes straight to an avocat and the avocat finds there is a simple straightforward solution at commune level that the OP could have sorted out himself, I don't somehow see the avocat saying 'it was so easy that you could have done it yourself, so I will waive my fee'. Worst case scenario, he'll recognise a vulnerable client who has no clear understanding of the situation and will drag the business out for a few months and make out it was a tricky, time-consuming and very expensive case.

[Patf]

If the worry is more of possible subsidence he might be able to get his land tested independently.

We had to have this done once in UK before we could get buildings insurance - the house was above disused coalmines. Quite a simple process of drilling down and analysing the layers below.

But if it's trying to get the building ban rescinded, that's going to be more complicated.

[Val_2]

Yes, any eventual court case will take years anyway to get any previous bans lifted and cost thousands of euros.

[Alan Zoff]

If it is a genuine case - and I too am surprised he hasn't acknowledged any of the replies yet - it still reads to me as someone who is just trying to make sure he hasn't missed a trick before diving in. Perfectly reasonable. As can be seen from the different responses, there are various ways this could be approached. I haven't a clue which is the "right" one but he might be better placed now to make an informed decision after taking into account the guidance offered, albeit from the anonymous and unaccountable.

[Rabbie]

As the OP has only posted two times in more than five years it is perhaps not so surprising that he/she has not replied. I would have thought that tis was a known problem when the property was bought so it should have been brought to his/her attention.

[Quillan]

I was wondering if this report etc was done before the OP bought the place and if so would not the Notiare have had to have bought it to their attention during the purchase? If not should the OP not have asked at the mayors office before he bought. We cetainly visited the our local mayors office and asked if there were any restrictions on our property and were there any future developments planned around our property. Because we could speak little or no French at the time we presented the mayor with a letter and got a written reply which afterwards we thought "well at least we have it in writing" which we felt a bit smug about should we have any future problems. We certainly did with relation to public access to our river which is not allowed and we did have problems with fishermen entering our garden but the agent sent a letter to the Prefecture which we photocopied the reply and handed to people entering our garden and could nicely tell them to 'F' off.

[Alan Zoff]

Is there a standard French phrase for that, Quillan?

[Quillan]

I think the reversed sign for peace is pretty universal. [;-)]

Off subject I know but a quick question on something else, whats the French equivilent of PTO (Please Turn Over) - serious question I might add?

[Alan Zoff]

I think it's TSVP

[NickP]

It certainly is. On the other hand it could be hello sailor. [:D]

[woolybanana]

I think you mean Ready About or in certain less respectable places Gybe Ho!

[nomoss]

[quote user="woolybanana"]I think you mean Ready About or in certain less respectable places Gybe Ho![/quote]

Watch it!

[ventodue]

[quote user="Quillan"]I was wondering if this report etc was done before the OP bought the place ....[/quote]

I had the same thought, Quillan.  According to the link from the département du Seine-Maritime that I posted earlier, certain of these surveys (300 of which have been done) date back to 1995.*

Also, I wonder about a possible mis-interpretation by the famous 'estate agent' of the effect of this survey.  Because, according to the Seine-Maritime site, these surveys are done to assist communities with the "révision de leur document d’urbanisme".  In other words, they are primarily a development control tool, not a mechanism for the 'blanket' banning of individual building projects.  Here are two supporting quotes:

"La loi relative à la prévention des risques technologiques et naturels et à la réparation des dommages prévoit que les communes ou leurs groupements compétents en matière de documents d’urbanisme élaborent, en tant que de besoin, des cartes délimitant les sites où sont situées des cavités souterraines et des marnières susceptibles de provoquer l’effondrement du sol (article L 563-6 du code de l’environnement).

And:

"4) Son utilisation

Le document est ensuite adressé aux services compétents en urbanisme et en prévention des risques. Il est ensuite intégré au document d’urbanisme avec les périmètres de risque définis selon l’origine de l’indice."

So it's possible that there may be a certain amount of 'jumping to conclusions' going on ... In any event - and as many others have advised !  - it would certainly be worth investigating further.

* The primary establing legislation is later, however: 30 July 2003 (http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexte.docidTexte=JORFTEXT000000604335&dateTexte=_)

[EuroTrash]

It sounded to me as if he already owned the house at the time the survey was done and was complaining that nobody told him about it at the time when it happened - "The survey was apparently carried out in 2009 at the behest of the local canton or possibly the local mairie, although this was the first we knew of it' and 'particularly as we were not informed of any survey or prohibition having been placed'.

But could be reading it wrong.