friend of stouby Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 Something in the back of my mind about a UK citizen can drive their own French registered car anywhere (that their French insurance allow) except for the UK, have I got this right?This isn't connected to French insurance as that is EU wide, rather it's about the UK not allowing their own citizens to drive a 'foreign' registered car while in the UK. The same law would apply to all EU countries and their own citizens in this case.We want to make a flying visit to the UK while we are spending a few months in France. The best vehicle for us to use is our French registered car rather than the large van we drive to France with.Any ideas and thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyh4 Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 I think it UK resident and not UK citizen that cannot drive a non-UK registered car belonging to them in the UK.From your details it looks like it applies to you. If the Essex location is spurious, it might be advisable to carry some proof that you are permanently resident in France - just in case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 You are not allowed to do it as a UK resident. And I would think very hard about saying that you are a french resident if you are not. They can prove these things easily, as a civil servant pointed out, these days, it doesn't take much, what with people using cards all the time and super market points cards and mobile phone usage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gardengirl Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 We had been thinking about buying a car to use in France, but when we found put the rules we decided against it as we would have perhaps wanted to drive it to England at some stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancer Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 Noel Edmonds actually had 2 identical Range Rovers, one in the UK the other in Spain both on the same registration plates, and one wonders whether there was only one insurance Policy in place, i.e. one was presumably the real vehicle the other a ringer, - allegedly [:D]Whether it also turned out to be stolen I dont know but there are many hundreds of other cases of people owning cars in 2 countries, the costa del sol being a favorite where one of them is stolen and ringed to be a copy of the legit one.I must point out to protect myself and this forum that I am not suggesting this was the case with Mr Edmonds who claimed at the time that it was a paperwork error, - allegedly [:D] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
friend of stouby Posted May 20, 2015 Author Share Posted May 20, 2015 We are still UK residents and do have a real address in the UK too. We are splitting our time between the UK, travel excluding France and France at our home there.We do have vehicles registered in the UK and in France and have never ever intimated that we are French residents. Did get stopped in a roadside spot check about 3 weeks ago near to Istres. The police checked all documents including my license, passport, what our address in France was and where we were resident and then waved us on with no comment except to say we had 4 week until the CT was due.So to get this right it's... by owning a French registered car I am forbidden to drive it in the UK as I am resident in the UK even though the insurers don't mind the car being driven in the UK.Is there a purpose to this ruling other than making life awkward?In effect it's better that we should sell our French car, buy a LHD UK car and insure it in the UK then we can bring it in and out, leave it in France for up to 3 or 6 months? (not sure on that ruling) and then return it to the UK.We were also thinking of buying a motorhome to register in France for mainly continental European usage but would also perhaps like to take it back to the UK on occasion, so this may need a re-think?Thanks to all for your input, can anyone give me a link to a DVLA section that deals with this subject please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 Just call the DVLA, and it is right and they won't be able to tell you why this is so, because they just follow the rules. There are very exceptions allowed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnOther Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 [quote user="friend of stouby"]Is there a purpose to this ruling other than making life awkward?[/quote]Of course, two in fact.Firstly it's about tax and to prevent people importing cars without paying any taxes which may be due, that's what NOVA is for.Secondly it's about traceability which clearly is pretty difficult on a foreign plate.Before it got absorbed into the gov.uk domain DVLA were very clear on the subject and stated quite unequivocally that UK residents were not permitted to drive foreign registered vehicles, since then however it's become apparently contradictory but does actually still say the same thing although in a convoluted way.On this page it says:You must get a UK licence plate if you’re a permanent resident and you want to drive a vehicle that you’ve permanently imported. which, by specifying 'permanently imported' infers that different rules apply to temporary imports.However, under Temporary Imports is says:You can usually use a vehicle with non-UK number plates without needing to tax or register it in the UK if all of the following apply:you’re visiting and don’t plan to live hereyou only use the vehicle up to 6 months in a 12-month period (one single visit, or several shorter visits adding up to a 6-month period)the vehicle is registered and taxed in its home countryYou must tax and register your vehicle in the UK within 14 days if you become a resident or your stay is longer than 6 months.which again is confusing because if you are resident by giving you 14 days it suggests that you can drive a foreign registered car for that length of time which is completely incompatible with the original DVLA statement.That all said DVLA are on record as having said in response to the question:'In the circumstances where a UK resident is using an EU registered vehicle in the UK on a temporary basis, on a visit from their holiday home, for example, they are entitled to use the vehicle when visiting the UK. We will be looking to amend the wording on the website to ensure this information is correctly reflected.' M.J., via email I trust the current wording is not the result !Another source of information is the MIB where while they don't actually mention UK residents saying 'where the keeper of the vehicle becomes resident' is in effect the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
friend of stouby Posted May 20, 2015 Author Share Posted May 20, 2015 That is a very interesting piece of information AnOther and I thank you for that.It's possible to take from this that the DVLA are fairly ambivalent about the subject providing it is short term and the criteria are met.I do think that with the UK's intense amount of vehicle recognition surveillance camera cover they could easily flag up if a foreign registered car remains in the UK longer than is allowed, finding out who owns it may be a different matter though.Thank you again, that is very informative piece of information straight from the horses mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 I agree it is ambiguous, but the DVLA say that british residents cannot drive foreign registered vehicules in the UK and that MIB thing does not mention british residents in foreign registered cars.Curiosity piqued, I shall call the DVLA tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gardengirl Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Very interesting, AnOther; having sent an email to DVLA to be clear on the matter as we're UK residents; the reply indicated that nothing had changed. I googled it yesterday and up came the wording you quoted, which appeared in Honest John's motoring column; this was dated 2009, way before we contacted the DVLA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnOther Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 [quote user="idun"]that MIB thing does not mention british residents in foreign registered cars.[/quote]Not as such no but it's hard to see how the reference to becoming resident can be interpreted in any other way than to mean already resident.For further reading these measures were proposed in 2012 and have been adopted but if or when they will be fully implemented who knows ?http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-12-242_en.htm?locale=enand the underlying directivehttp://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=COM:2012:0164:FIN:EN:PDF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gardengirl Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 I've just been having a further look at the rules and regs:https://www.gov.uk/importing-vehicles-into-the-uk/temporary-imports7. Temporary importsYou can usually use a vehicle with non-UK number plates without needing to tax or register it in the UK if all of the following apply:you’re visiting and don’t plan to live hereyou only use the vehicle up to 6 months in a 12-month period (one single visit, or several shorter visits adding up to a 6-month period)the vehicle is registered and taxed in its home countryYou must tax and register your vehicle in the UK within 14 days if you become a resident or your stay is longer than 6 months.I take it from this that we could bring a French-registered car into the UK for up to 14 days and after that period it would have to be registered in UK.That wouldn't work for us, as we often stay in UK for 3+ weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyh4 Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 I don't think you could even do that GG.Point 1 "you’re visiting and don’t plan to live here"But you give your location as Gard/Berkshire, so I assume (dangerous) that you are part time resident in the UK. As such you fail on meeting all of the criteria.The section reading:"You must tax and register your vehicle in the UK within 14 days if you become a resident or your stay is longer than 6 months."Would also not apply since you would not be becoming UK resident - you already are (a legal nicety but the whole of this is not aimed at people such as yourself and the OP. It is aimed at non-residents coming to the UK) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Well I did ring, because I do that sort of thing and it is really 'no' a UK resident cannot drive a foreign registered vehicule in the UK. I asked why and they said that they did not know and can only tell me about the current regulations in force, not even about proposals, which is fair enough. Call them.Interesting things from the EU but obviously not yet binding.edit, ps there are a couple of exceptions, but did not apply to holiday homers second cars from another country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pickles Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 The EU has proposed that all vehicles, including those based at second homes, will have to be registered in the country of residence of the owner, removing the current exemptions for cars registered in the country of the second home of the owner.It hasn't gone beyond a proposal as yet IIRC.I'd be reluctant to take a flyer based on a one-off response from the DVLA which is 6 years old, reported second - hand in a selectively-quoted letter to a motoring column. It is interesting to note that Honest John's own website contradicts this letter, reporting the official line as recorded on the direct.gov website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gardengirl Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 You're quite right! I cut and pasted that during my rotten night's sleep - or rather, rotten night's wakefulness and didn't re-read when I posted. Silly thing to do! Thanks for putting me right.Oh well, we've saved the cash we had originally thought to spend on buying a car down there, so if we decide to buy one to only keep there it might get used. Now there are direct trains down to the south other than just on summer Saturdays it could be a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 As I said, I did ask them and that is what they said, no, quite simply no.Remember Opas's husband getting arrested for driving a french registered lorry in the UK, and from what I have read he was a french resident AND like all other internationa drivers had a right to do that. So the police do know about this, and in that particular case, it would seem, got it wrong. In this case, it would not be wrong, if the OP brought their car back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Araucaria Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Coming back to one of the OP's later questions - he suggested he might get a LHD car that's registered in the UK, and have it in France most of the time.I think that works OK providing he insures it in the UK and complies with the MoT requirement by taking it back to the UK for testing every year. I take it there's no news on the UK going over to a two-year validity for MoTs, is there? I know this was once proposed.And as for a motorhome ..... the same rule (ie not driving it in the UK) would apply. So maybe that too would be best kept on UK plates and complying with UK law.I have to say I find the DVLA's position simply stupid - what harm could there be in having a stated de minimis period, 14 days or a month? If they have the ability to check up on all this - as it appears they do - they could easily enforce it. I am fairly sure that in one of the many other threads on this forum in which this topic has been done to death and (way) beyond, the DVLA were on record as saying that throughout the EU, cars had to be registered only in the country of their owner's residence - ie they thought that in France it wasn't possible (legal?) to register a car to your holiday home. Which would make a tiny bit more sense of the DVLA's prohibition on a UK resident bringing their own foreign registered car into the UK (because they shouldn't have one). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulT Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Do I remember correctly that one of the very large UK haulage companies hit on registering their lorries in Holland to save money but then discovered a problem such that their lorries are now all registered in the UK.Perhaps, if the UK did not have the RFL they would be less strict on driving a foreign registered vehicle.As for the MOT, a two year period has been rejected. Cars pre 1960 do not have to be tested but many concerned classic car owners of pre 1960 cars still have them tested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pickles Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 [quote]I am fairly sure that in one of the many other threads on this forum in which this topic has been done to death and (way) beyond, the DVLA were on record as saying that throughout the EU, cars had to be registered only in the country of their owner's residence - ie they thought that in France it wasn't possible (legal?) to register a car to your holiday home. [/quote]I don't think that the DVLA have actually said this - it would be beyond their competence. However, it is stated in this way on the EU's main site and it is only when you burrow down that you will find the exemption for cars based at holiday homes clarified. The key issue is that in most EU countries, there is a period of grace when you import a car before you have to have it re - registered, whereas in the UK there is NO period of grace. If the UK introduced a period of grace, then all the problems would be solved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
friend of stouby Posted May 22, 2015 Author Share Posted May 22, 2015 Thanks againThis subject is quite messy as the ruling isn't particularly logical or helpful.We are back and forth maybe 6 times each year, used to be more often. We have a small UK business which requires us to be in the UK whether we want to be or not and as a matter of course our UK vehicles are MoT'd and taxed in the UK, so not a big deal to take a car that spends an amount of time in France back to the UK.I appreciate that most folk don't travel to and fro so frequently therefore have to make a choice of a UK or French registered car. Our French car is 99% for use in France so it's logical to have a French registered car, but the convenience of being able to use it say for one short trip per year to the UK is obviously not possible, but as someone wrote, how stupid is that.3 weeks ago we made a short visit to Italy, last week we made a short visit to Germany and Poland all in our French car. It is a nonsense that we are fully entitled to drive our French car in these 'other' countries but not the country we were born in and spend most time. Our French car is insured via a large assurance agency who part specialise in insuring ex pats and holiday home owners, very efficient they are too. They are very aware we do not live in France full time and insure on that basis with one of the worlds larger insurance companies.One of our friends who has discussed residence with many insists we are all residents of the EU and not a particular country, but we are affiliated to a particular country due to where we spend the most time and more important (to the authorities) where we pay our taxes.We'll have to give this some thought as each situation (car ownership and registration) has it's pluses and minuses, I guess each individual will come to their own compromise.Thank you again for your help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 It isn't really a compromise is it, it is a decision, either follow the UK rules or don't and be prepared to accept whatever consequences that could follow if you decide to not follow the rules. I'm sure that there are many, like your friend, who this idea of a 'free' europe, but it is not like that, and personally I hope that it never is. Incidentally I do think that this is all nonsense about UK residents not being able to use foreign registered cars in the UK. Why don't you contact your European MP's, about this, I think that there a few in each region, give them something to do and earn their hefty salaries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyh4 Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 The reasons for the rulings about not being able to drive foreign cars in your country of residence become clearer when you look at some of the (more extreme) tax and taxation differences between different EU countries.The most extreme case that I am aware of is Denmark, where purchase taxes on a vehicle amount to around 50% of the base purchase price. Imagine what would happen if the Danish could all take a train across the border to Germany and buy a German registered car at "just" 20% Vat and drive around Denmark forever and a day.As Pickles points out the main problem stems from the UK having no period of grace to re-register if you are UK resident.This is however not the only anomaly that crops up and for 5 years I was driving in a probably precarious situation under the strict interpretation of the laws. On average I was working and living (and being taxed) in Germany for around 140 days. I was spending around the same amount of time at our house in France (here my wife was in residence and therefore I was also tax resident), with the rest of the time being spent in other countries. So which country's registration should I have used when commuting between Germany and France?The law of unintended consequences seems to apply to what are on the face of it very sensible rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
friend of stouby Posted May 25, 2015 Author Share Posted May 25, 2015 I do like the idea of a free Europe but only if a more realistic and practical political class appear. idun of course you are correct, it is a decision to stay within the law or not. Quite a few French people I have met In France suggest that laws are there only as advice, and sometimes laws are wrong and are ok to be ignored. Unfortunately I have a British view that laws are not to be broken however stupid they are, so we made the decision to make alternative arrangements that don't involve taking a French registered vehicle to the UK with us driving it, but not half as convenient as if we could take our own holiday car ourselves. Yes I will pursue this with an MEP but that will only happen slowly due to time restraints while we are both working.andyh4, quite curious how you got around your multi country problem...Thanks for your opinions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.