Macker Posted August 27, 2005 Share Posted August 27, 2005 One of the reasons we moved to France was to get away from the 9–5 grind and the labels that go with it and part of our plan was that we would have lots of different things going on that would (hopefully) earn us a living. I registered myself as a gardening micro enterprise a year and a half ago, partially because that was what I was doing at the time and partially because I needed to get into the system because we have two children at school and we needed to be in the 'system'. I still have quite a few gardening regulars but we also have a gite and a couple of chambre d'hotes. I also paint (as in paintings) and hope to open a small gallery next year. In addition, my wife is a craftsperson and she would like to do Christmas markets and vide greniers with her goods and we also have the possibility of opening a small shop where we live.From my past life I have many years experience in the construction industry (although no formal qualifications) and can turn my hand to most things and have found that there is probably quite a market for this type of thing locally and I have a few other ideas for generating income as well. I approached the local Chambre de Commerce about the gite/c d'h and they suggested that, as I am already registered, we register it in my wife's name but that would mean having to pay two sets of social charges and taxes (already high enough thanks). When I mentioned the other stuff listed above the person in the CdeC nearly threw a wobbly and could not get her head around it at all. I suppose that the same thing would happen in the UK where you would register as whatever and then just declare any income no matter what it derived from. My worry is that someone will say 'You're not registered as a gite/chambre d'otes business' even though we're declaring the income and paying tax on it except it is being declared under a totally different business i.e gardening. Same goes for construction work. If I am, for example, doing some renovation work on a house and approached by the gendarmes who see that my siret only covers me for gardening even though I am declaring and paying tax on my income, will I be in trouble even if I have made the people who I am doing it for aware of the limitations of my siret? I imagine that there must be lots of expats who have the same idea as us and I expect that it's probably easier to keep it all on the q.t. but we would like to be up front and pay our share so my question basically is: Is there any easy way that any of you have found to create an umbrella business that can cover a number of different income streams. Grateful for any experiences or solutions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Val_2 Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 The building trade here in France is probably the most regulated of all the metier trades. You just simply cannot be registered with a SIRET for gardening and also take on building works,too many authorities are going to get involved. Your social charges will not only be the standard URSSAF,CPAM and ASSEDIC but you will also have to pay into PROBTP and AVA for private pensions/insurances as well as take out very expensive Résponsabilité Deçennale & Civile insurance to cover building related problems and claims,pay a higher Taxe Professionnelle and payment to the apprenticeships scheme etc The more trades you cover, the higher the payments are( our are 2000€ six monthly with no claims for or against us in ten years). There are have been too many lawn cutters suddenly start to build extensions and take on electrical installations and with horrendous results too that the authorities have clamped down hard on this to protect the consumers. If you really want to be an artisan builder here and earn enough to support your family you have to register for TVA,Micro systems do not bring in enough and you would exceed your limit within the first quarter as a serious builder anyway,the tax man loves to ask questions about where your income comes from and how you are managing to survive here. You also need a good building trades accountant to get you the best allowances and they are not cheap here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Trollope Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 I think that you have answered you own questions;If you do get collared & it is discovered that you are doing something you are not registered to do, the chances are that both you & your client will get done for it. Paying atx is no excuse!Most Artisans (of all nationalities, some worse than others) "work on the black" at some time - it is often the only way to make ends meet.If your client still gives you the work after you have told them that you aren't registered, then they are plonkers. In the unlikely event that someone gets nicked (or more lilkely, injured), then they will come off worse. Keep quiet.The French can't get their heads around a "multi-discipline" business, as you have already discovered. Which is why it is strange that there are one-man-bands advertising themselves as "total renovation". It doesn't work like that here.I doubt if it is possible to create an unbrella business, unless you employ someone qualified to do each task, within that company, or create an SARL with suitably qualified managers.As you suggest, keep it on the qt! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo53 Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 Surely everyone has the right to earn a living in any way they can, as long as they comply with the legislation for each occupation. Be firm. You have the right to support yourself in any ways that are legal, it is up to the bureaucrats to 'get their heads round it'. It might be worth speaking to someone different; often one fonctionnaire will say one thing and another something different. Also maybe speak to an accountant who specialises in self-employment/small business, who might be able to help you work out how to structure things.Jo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ty Korrigan Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 Hello, I am often asked by Brits and French to undertake tasks that are out of my remit. I rarely refuse the work outright, preffering to find some-one qualified for the client and by doing so impress them with my savvy and super customer service... Don't I make you sick!It works though! I advertise 'TREE SURGEON AVAILABLE' on my publicity but would never dream doing this work myself.There is a small financial or more usually inkind reward for my passing work on to gratefull artisans. At the very least I get a sense of positive karma and well being from this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kayjay<P> <P><P>"Passer sa vie à lutter contre la connerie est le meilleur procédé pour mourir dépuisement."<P> Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 "At the very least I get a sense of positive karma and well being from this."Careful, Ty - the tax-man will want a share of that as well, if you're not careful....Seriously, though - and pace the "when in Rome..." brigade - it is patently absurd that French bureaucracy militates against people who are just trying to make a living. I doubt that it's all down to protecting the poor, dumb consumer - it's just the state flexing its muscles and the fonctionaires protecting their own fairly pointless and time-serving existences! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iceni Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 The UK are starting to go down the same road, in fact the electrical rules in the UK as to what a house owner can even do to his own property is now draconian.How many of us have had 'general builders' do work in the UK (cannot speak about France as I don't think they really exist) and they say - oh, just found this xxxxx problem and will only take me a moment to fix it - Yeh, right. And it has cost us dearly to get it all sorted later. My aunt had a recommended 'general builder' who talked her into doing her electrics and plumbing - well the cost to put it right still goes on years later.I am with Ty. By the way, the registration my business has has certainly turned some heads in France (I think the terms were decided in Paris) - but that is such a 'general description' which bit of it do you do - errr - well everything I am qualified to do.I am sure that there is a way round anything that is not a real 'trade' - speak to a good accountant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaligoBay Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 How many of us have had 'general builders' do work in the UK (cannot speak about France as I don't think they really exist) I found one today! Standing in the queue at the boulangerie, I picked up a leaflet and thought of this thread (sad, I know, but it was a long queue, my mind had time to wander!).He offers electrical work, maçonnerie, plomberie, among other things. Pretty much covers everything house-building related. There must be a title for this kind of business, surely? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La Doretie Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 ....but is he a "qualified and registered electrician", and a "qualified and registered plumber"?........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garlic Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 I hope I'm not going to get jumped on for talking about something I know nothing about...but I have lived here a wee while.Right to the point...There is a bloke in my town, French, registered all his numbers in tact etc. He is registered as 'multi trades' (but without hunting out an invoice I'm not sure what the proper French is) he is pretty much a one man outfit. He seems to jump in when jobs are too small for 'proper' trades. I've seen him making repairs to roofs, He cleans chimmneys, fits woodburners, does a bit of plumbing, a bit of gas...small stuff but it is a bit of everything. He is legit and his invoices detail all these different things (I've used him for loads of stuff)...so I think it's possible what is different is that I wouldn't ask him to plumb my house but I would ask him to fit a new tap or repair something if that makes sense...I could ask him how it works next time I see him maybe... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ty Korrigan Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 It would be fasinating to know what that chap had to do in order to set up as such!101 assurances...? 10 years served in each trade...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lola777Email Lcjscott@gmail.com Posted September 6, 2005 Share Posted September 6, 2005 I am a trainee lawyer in England (22yrs), and I am able to speak advanced French. I have been researching life in France, and decided quite a while ago that I would like to relocate to the Burgundy region of France. However, I am worried about the employment aspect of things, in view of the high unemployment rates in France generally.I would be moving with my mum. We would feel more reassured, if we knew that there were English people in the area, with whom we could exchange tips etc and socialise with. I wonder if anyone has any advice. I have contacted the french equivalent of the jobs centre (anpe.fr), but they said that I need to be a French resident before I can submit my CV etc,Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coco Posted September 8, 2005 Share Posted September 8, 2005 Going back to the original question. I can't answer the whole question (wish I could, cos then we'd do it too!!) However, as you are already registered for the gardening, you are quite within your rights to run the chambres d'hotes without registering. You only have to register chambres d'hotes if it is your sole or prime source of income. Otherwise, as you have been told already, you will be paying two lots of cotisations for exactly the same end results/benefits. So at least you can do two of your "multi-task" roles legally!I too have seen a Frenchman advertising in local newspapers and supermarkets with a very smart leaflet and siret number, offering to do any job that is too small for others to entertain. I must make a note of the siret number next time and see what he is registered as. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0The Plan ManAll the best,<br><br>StewartddMMyyyy0Falseen-USAll the best,<br><br>StewartTrue Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 [quote]I am a trainee lawyer in England (22yrs), and I am able to speak advanced French. I have been researching life in The trick to working here is threefold - exercising determination and flexibility; having a useful skills set with which you are able to 'reinvent' yourself with; and thridly putting yourself into a situation where those skills are in demand.From what you say, you have two great strings to your bow - a good command of French, and a good base in law. There are growth areas in France where Brits are moving to in their droves - the maojity of whom are buying property. They all need advise on property law and probate.Have you thought of doing what a chap (UK solicitor) has done here (24) very successfully - being the go-between that manages the relationship between official, but non-English speaking Notaires, and English house-purchasers. He hasn't bothered to requalify here - in effect he is little more than a consultant. But he explais the ins and outs of the subject, learns their situation, suggests the legal solution, and then directs the notaires in the preparation of paperwork, and then translates at the signing.(PS Before I get replied to with a barrage of 'if they're coming to France, they should speak French' criticism - I agree, but technical French - ie law - is outside the range of many good French-speakers, and one can't afford to get it wrong!!).Best of luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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