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What type of work if any?


jackrabbitslims

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Hello all, having read loads of threads on the livingfrance forum re employment (and lack of it?),  my wife and I would like to know your opinions\experiences of moving to France with no jobs and no big financial lump sum to live off for any period of time.  Our dream is to live in france permanently but we would take a year to get a rounded, realistic picture of what this actually entails. 

We plan to rent out our house in the UK for a year and rent somewhere in the Pyrenees\Languedoc.  This doesn't phase us at all.  We are simply worried about earning enough to get by.  We are a qualified dietician and an HGV driver (now office based) and would consider doing anything initially until we find our feet.  Are there agencies in the above areas that could help us?  Our language skills are weak at the moment so that is an obvious hindrance.  If there are jobs, what type of work would it be?  What about salary?  We don't really need to be told that 'this is a massive risk' and you're crazy to move without language skills' as we've read this lots of times on the forum.  What we would like are peoples EXPERIENCES.  Are there jobs in factories\fruit-picking\couriers\market stalls?  We have considered starting a business but the bereaucracy puts us off somewhat!

We're not frightened of people being realistic with their replies as this is what we want.  ALL experiences relayed to us will be welcomed.

 

Thanks & Regards. 

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Hi,

In 2003 we went on some websites on properties we looked the like of having firstly put together a check list. Decided to retain uk property and took out fixed rate motgage for two years and raised capital to purchase outright in France. My wife retired from teaching due to stresses and I was looking ease down on my working in Financial Services after 24 years.  Decided life too short and just go for it. Found a property with little work required other than just keeping tidy and changing decor and keeping garden in order.  Found property of our dreams and met all of requirements and more in Oct 2003 and moved in March 2004.  Have met other English people over here. Some work in their trades ie builders, hairdressers etc and others are retired and some like myself who commute. I spend 2 weeks per month now in France ( location Charente Maritime near Montguyon) originally it was 3 weeks UK 10 days France.  Language can be a problem but if you try, locals appreciate effort. Have got into local sports club for tennis and this can get connections if I wanted to create work. I'm looking to be over here full time in late 2007/early 2008.

Some English look to do property maintenance/gardening etc for those who have holiday homes and don't want to find a wilderness upon arrival.

Have now sold UK property, downsized, repaid mortgage  and  I am living in a rented property own by member of family. UK income pays rent etc.  Wife has pension from teaching but if I had to leave UK tomorrow we would survive through hard work.

Lifestyle,  location and pace of life here is worth it. New experiences and challenges are wonderful even though we have had set backs.

Travel regularly either via BMIbaby.com Manchester - Bordeaux or drive and use Speedferries from Dover to Boulogne.

Hope you get something from this note. Good luck

 

David

 

 

 

  

 

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This is mainly guesswork so correct any gross errors - I think you can get  factory work, fruit picking , waiter/waitressing, labouring etc but this would probably paid at minimum wage which is about 8 euros per hour. So if you work a 35 hour week that would be about 280 euros per week.   Out of this you may have to pay some tax and social/health contributions etc, say 15% of your wage . So from this you can work out how much you have left to live on. I believe many french families exist on this kind of amount, but it won't seem much to people used to UK standards. Maybe not so bad if you can both find full time work. Pat.ps you are more likely to find this kind of work in or near towns.

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The interim agencies include Adecco and Manpower with, usually, others that are just local to a certain area.  Try google for their sites.

It is wages minus around 20% then tax deducted I think.

Although French famillies do live on smic, they can claim for certain things to raise the amount which might not be available to UK people.  There was an article in the paper the other day showing just how the number of people on RMI had increased in recent years.

10% unemployment in France.  It can be difficult to find a job.

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I think if your language skills are weak and you're looking at doing anything then, like your name, your chances are very slim.  There is high unemployment for unskilled people in France and certainly in the Pyranees Orientales it is higher than a lot of other areas.  In 66 (or maybe it's 11) the Formica factory (one of the few local employers) closed last year and made a lot more unemployed.  Fruit picking is seasonal and extremely low paid; waitering is also seasonal and without language skills is virtually a non-starter.  I would have thought your wife's best bet would be to find out if her qualifications are transferrable and if not, what she needs to do to work as a dietician in France and do an intensive French course.

There are way too many people who think that just because they are prepared to do anything and work hard at it that it is enough.  Unfortunately there is not enough work to go round in France and without the language there's virtually no hope.

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Hello David and thanks for taking the time to respond.  We did initially think of offering a service to Gite and holiday home owners offering basic cosmetic work to properties and general gardening between holidaymakers' arrivals.  We thought that there be enough work in the area we're looking (Languedoc\Pyrenees)?  We've always had a positive response when we've attempted conversing in French (I studied it at Uni to minimal success!).  We think if we immersed ourselves in France for a year - on a 'Sink or swim' basis - that we would adapt\learn reasonably quickly.  It's the work element that concerns us, in fact it's the only thing that concerns us. 

With regards your tennis club, I'm still a reasonable footballer and would definitely get involved with a local club if we moved as this is usually a good way to meet people in the local vicinity.  We are still siding with the view that the obvious risk will be worth it for the lifestyle, climate and natural beauty that we would gain from moving to France.

I doth my cap to you and your wife for taking the plunge and genuinely hope that it all works out for you. 

Regards

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Thanks for the reply Pat. As we've said we would do anything initially to get established and we realise that it would be a struggle financially.  Your right about it not seeming much by UK standards but our hope is to downsize\simplify our lives, living in a warm, beautiful country.  We are prepared to forego the nights out on the town, a new car every 2 years and working long hours to live our ideal in Southern France on much less money.  Will we be happier long term? That we don't know, but we're hoping to find out.

 

A note to Alexis** We are currently looking into Manpower and Adecco to see what sort of work they have on offer and what it pays. 

Thanks to you both for your responses.

 

Regards.

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There are way too many people who think that just because they are prepared to do anything and work hard at it that it is enough.

St Amour, you may have missed the tone of our post?

The very fact that we're asking for people's experiences in moving to France with limited language skills, hoping to do any type work surely suggests that we don't think that this is simply enough to succeed; in fact it's the very essence of the question we are asking.  IS it enough to simply want to work hard and be prepared to do anything that can make you succeed in France, at least in the initial stages?  You obviously think not?! What exactly is your experience St Amour as it's the experiences of people in similar situations to ourselves that we would love to hear from. Did you arrive in France with no lump sum to live off and activley go out and find work in the French economy?  If so, then do tell. 

Though your response is appreciated - helping to give a balanced view? -  it tended to patronise slightly (see your above quote).  

We do have limited language skills but not non-existent.  We have conversational French but are not fluent enough to undertake the jobs that we do in the UK.  As you will read from our other posts on this thread we are hoping to make a 'life decision'. ie we are hoping to weigh up our life in the UK against a potentially very different life France.

Thanks for your response. 

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When we moved here two years ago, we spoke no French at all. I don't have to work as I have a small RAF pension (at 48). The lump sum left over from hte house sale in the UK helps, but we try not to touch it. We have managed very well and run two large motorbikes and a car. But one thing we have done is break our ties with the UK and never want to go back even for a visit. Many people could not do this for family reasons.

If you want to read how it all happened then see the blog below.

We now manage to talk to locals and don't have many Brits close to us. Our income is about 15% of what we had in the UK but we live a much better life.

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If you could initially place yourself within reach of a fairly major town I think that would help you loads. You would be better placed to find work in local factories/supermarkets, etc as there will simply be more available. We are near to Cahors, a small town, and I have been job-hunting for a couple of months now as our boy is full-time at school. A job at our local Leclerc checkout would suit me fine and just give us a steady, small income which is just what we need (my husband works from home - work is well-paid but infrequent as he is so specialised). I had an interview and am deemed suitable and am on the waiting list as of August - still waiting and it could be a while. I recently got rejected for the post of chamber maid as my qualifications did not match those of the job ad (none required...)!!

My french is passable, I have a degree and 10 yrs UK work experience, 34 yrs old. I think if I was looking around Toulouse it wouldn't be quite so hard.

There is nothing like working to get the language better so plug at it - perhaps you could initially rent nearer to a large town than you would want to be just for the work, then buy further out later on. Why not be paid, even if it is minimum wage, to improve your french?

Good luck!

Jane

PS I went to Manpower and Adecco and left my details about oooh 8 months ago - not a peep. With companies like this I think it is best to say exactly what you want rather than 'I'll do anything!'.

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I have refrained from posting here because I did not want to sound negative, but you do ask for direct personal experiences. All I can do is give my own experience, and that of many other British and French people I know.

If you want to work in rural France, then I think one considered option is the black market. There is so little else - even if you have French qualifications it is difficult. For the gite maintenance option you suggest, I don't know what it is like in the area you are looking at, but here in Normandy/Brittany just about every other British person is offering that or a closely-related service. You have the choice of working legally, in which case, as expenses, charges and tax probably account for over 60% of your income, you have to set your fees accordingly. So if you want work you have to undercut the established people, then if you want to live you are left with the option of working on the black, and there is stiff competition there too. I know I will be shot down in flames by the holier-than-thou brigade who either do not have to work, or were able to establish businesses when things were less competitive, so I would like to stress that working au noir is strictly illegal and has all sorts of unpleasant implications so it cannot be endorsed on the forum, but it's what happens in real life when British people have to get some income in France and it's often the only avenue open to them.

It's not always as bad as it may seem, some people have jobs. Mrs Will is employed by an estate agency, but, it has to be said, at a pittance for what she actually does. Although she did well to land the job, this was five years ago and things are far more competitive now - thanks probably to her success in selling houses to British people. She did get it all fixed up before moving to France and it was done on the basis as much of who she knew rather than having experience or qualifications other than reasonable spoken French (which of course, having worked in France is now excellent). And the number of people, many very experienced and well qualified, who have applied on spec for jobs like hers, is testament to how few opportunities there are at present.

Many people find life in France less stressful, and in theory it should be so, but my personal experience has been the opposite.

Others we know, who speak OK French, have had short term jobs in things like fruit picking, rubbish collection, abattoir work, deliveries, but these do not last long. Even French workers whom we know spend a lot of time unemployed if they find themselves between jobs. There are, too, people whom I have known only through this forum rather than personally, who have had HGV driving jobs here in France, so maybe that's possible (not making any promises though).

Although I cannot speak from experience it may be easier - but probably not much - in the cities.

The other alternative is to live in France and commute to work in England. A surprising number of people manage to do this, as demonstrated in previous posts.

I know this is probably not what you wanted to read, but it is an attempt to answer your question with honesty based on real experiences rather than either total doom and gloom or false optimism. I hope it doesn't appear patronising or unpleasant. Whatever you do, keep an exit strategy until you know France is what you want. Your idea of renting initially is sound. My advice would be that if living in France depends on getting a job, don't do it. The time to move to France is when you are able to retire.

 

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Like BobT our income is much reduced compared to the UK - about 15 to 20% of what it was.  But as this is not our priority, nor Bob's, nor yours, that is not a disincentive to moving here - as long as you can scrape enough of a living to survive and you don't make yourselves miserable by having to scrimp too much.  I wish you good luck.  It's got to be worth at least giving it a go, if that's what your heart tells you and you are reasonably sure, having researched the area, that you can find work there.

Just in case it does not work out, can you somehow leave the door open to go back - e.g. if you have UK property rent it rather than sell it and rent here at first?

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[quote user="jackrabbitslims"]

There are way too many people who think that just because they are prepared to do anything and work hard at it that it is enough.

St Amour, you may have missed the tone of our post?

The very fact that we're asking for people's experiences in moving to France with limited language skills, hoping to do any type work surely suggests that we don't think that this is simply enough to succeed; in fact it's the very essence of the question we are asking.  IS it enough to simply want to work hard and be prepared to do anything that can make you succeed in France, at least in the initial stages?  You obviously think not?! What exactly is your experience St Amour as it's the experiences of people in similar situations to ourselves that we would love to hear from. Did you arrive in France with no lump sum to live off and activley go out and find work in the French economy?  If so, then do tell. 

Though your response is appreciated - helping to give a balanced view? -  it tended to patronise slightly (see your above quote).  

We do have limited language skills but not non-existent.  We have conversational French but are not fluent enough to undertake the jobs that we do in the UK.  As you will read from our other posts on this thread we are hoping to make a 'life decision'. ie we are hoping to weigh up our life in the UK against a potentially very different life France.

Thanks for your response. 

[/quote]

Well if I offended you with my posting Jackrabbitslims I very sorry - it wasn't intended, but you did say you wanted to hear ALL experiences and my experience is that  "There are way too many people who think that just because they are prepared to do anything and work hard at it that it is enough"  It was not meant to be patronising, it is a fact.  This part of Normandy is FULL of people who think that WILLINGNESS to work and to be prepared to do anything is enough.  You obviously don't think mine is a balanced view.  Well it's a view I have obtained from living here for 4 years and seeing many, many people try and make a go of it and often ending up having to reluctantly go back to the UK or have the husband work in the UK 5 days a week and then BANG, that new quality of life is lost overnight.  

We came here with the remains of the equity in our UK property as backup.  We had hoped that it would sit in the bank and only be used in emergencies.  I also came here with "half" of my UK job still open to me via the internet.  This was going to give us an income of about 25% of our original UK income to keep us going until our B&B became more established.  However, as Will says, URSSAF take about 60% of that income, so we didn't have very much left after deductions.  The job then folded after six months because even though it was promised to me for as long as I wanted to continue, my boss changed his mind and decided that he needed to cut costs and I was probably the softest option - he didn't have to look me in th eye after 7 years loyal service and tell me I was out - he could do it by letter.  So, that backup lump sum came into play. Our costs are much smaller than they were in the UK but you still have to eat, and dress and if you live in the country a car is vital.  After 20 years of company cars you suddenly realise how expensive modern car maintenance is - you can't do it yourself any more, so that's another expense to think of.

My husband's skills were directly transferable to France - a lot of the engineers in his old company were being outsourced via Manpower and the same is happening here in France with the same company and Manpower but because his French wasn't fluent (it was certainly good enough to DO the job) and because they have French people who DO have the skills, they weren't interested in him and that was with him being prepared to commute to Caen or Cherbourg.  That is one of the things I meant by being willing to work and work hard not being enough.  With high unemployment, the French person will nearly always get the job over a foreigner - unless you have pretty good French (and you admited yours was weak) AND the skills and the French person doesn't.  So unskilled work is going to be hard to come by. 

I think that our B&B is pretty successful - we have 4 rooms now and are still full this week, but nightly rates are less than half of those in the UK, so even a successful B&B doesn't make a fortune and doesn't cover our very frugal living costs; well it does cover our day to day costs but not clothes, birthdays, Christmas, holidays (what's a holiday?) eating out, emergency costs (like new brakes on the car), so all of those things are still coming out of our dwindling savings.

As I said, I have friends who speak excellent French who live in the area you are looking at but are not able to find work.  Fortunately they had already bought a house here and when they were both made redundant they were able to buy several apartments with their redundancy money and are managing to live off the income from those - but jobwise it's hard in the rural areas.

I remember years ago my mum quoting some old saying to me and I know I've got it wrong but it was something like "when bills come through the door, love flies out the window."  In essence I realise now what she meant; quality of life is extremely important, beautifiul natural surroundings are a wonderful thing to have, material things aren't everything, but if you can't sleep at night because you don't know where the money is going to come from to pay the taxe d'habitation or the food bill you will end up being just as stressed here as in England.

So good luck to you and I hope you are successful.  But from personal experience and from what I've seen of many other Brits, who think they've been careful and done their homework, do yours and then do it again! 

 

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Hi there

On a positive note, my OH has found some work via Manpower, purely because we made sure his CV reflected the type of work they offered ie. labouring etc. and because he kept calling to say he was available. However, it's not much more than the minimum wage, so don't expect much.

If you have to find work this way then be careful what you put in your CV and research what type of jobs they offer and be creative with your experience!

And once you've registered with the agency don't wait for them to contact you, get a contact name and keep calling back each week - I used to work in a temping agency and the first people we hired were those that kept in touch and were keen.

Good luck with your decision!

Lynpy

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I'm here alone, I had 4 years of commuting back & for each month before I finally moved down aged 33.

Those 4 years gave me a fantastic start.  I had a network of French friends who have helped in every way they could, mentally I couldn't have done what I've achieved without them!

Four years since my permanent move; I now have my own business which allows me to 'make ends meet' pay the mortgage, run the car (fuel is paid by my business) and get away every year (to warmer & cheaper climes in winter!)

However, I have had a lot of help, knowing the right people etc I've had to work hard at it and even now life is not a bed of roses, each month I have to balance the books and last month almost went under - this month is looking incredibly rosy but ONLY because I managed to make the payment to the govt. for my cotisations.  Had that not been paid I would have been on the scrapheap trying to start again.

France is NOT somewhere to 'look for work' it's somewhere that you have to have a niche market to sell yourself, you won't be the only English person in your region looking for work.  Ideally, as others have said, you need to have a 'back up plan' if that means continuing work in the UK then so be it.  I've seen many people leave because they can't make it work, dreams shattered and penniless selling their old wreck for a pittance to get out quick.  Many of these have relied on other English speakers in their area to help them ... personally I don't think you can do it that way!

You must do your homework, find a living BEFORE you move and most importantly UNDERSTAND the system!

Kira

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Thanks again for all of your responses.  Most replies have basically confirmed our own fellings, thoughts and fears with regards to making the move in our situation (less than perfect language skills, no lump sum and no jobs lined up). 

St Amour, you had no need to apology though it is definitely accepted.  Sometimes peoples' opinions, advice, condolences or criticism can be mis-interpreted in mail format.  Touchy? Moi?!!

It's nice to know that we're not the only people to have attempted the move in less than ideal circumstances.  As it stands at the moment, we are going to hang fire, brush up on the language, holiday in France frequently and keep getting the emails sent from immobiliers in the hope that our dream property (at year 2000 prices) falls into our laps!

For fear of statrting another thread, what is the situation regarding setting up a haulage Company in France??!!  At the moment this is a joke but...

 

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HGV company - At the moment the continental big boys are struggling to make half of one percent return on investment, and lots of small guys are pulling out. 

Reasons cited - low returns, high fuel costs, increasing labour costs, new social rules for driver, extending motorway tolls, electronic tachograph .................................

Whether this is a disincentive or leaves a gap in the market is for you to decide.

 

At the start of the year P&G could not place 14000 deliveries in their annual plan and my company is also struggling with available capacity.

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Take a look on ANPE (jobs website) it is pretty easy to follow, especially today .......yesterday the site was down for maintenance, they have cleared off all the "old" adverts, from memory there are about 24 jobs in my departement today!
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[quote user="jackrabbitslims"]

We are still siding with the view that the obvious risk will be worth it for the lifestyle, climate and natural beauty that we would gain from moving to France.

[/quote]

You hope to gain natural beauty by moving to France?   [:-))]

Photos please, everyone!  [:D]

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Cassis, either you're a midget or that lovely bit of cod needs some

help with munching through....so, I'm yer man (as dear old Leonard did

warble)

(P.S Yes OK it's a fair carp, got me bang to rights, it's not a Cod but for the quip, I think it better [:)] )

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[quote].

[img]http://www.normandie-chambres.co.uk/sausagefish.jpg[/img]

[/quote]

"Oh come on my little sausage, you know you want it, we both know we

were meant for each other. I've lurved you since we met that

day in the deli"

"OK but take it gentle with me, I am Fwench and I am known to spurt

werry eesylee, me mate Miki still 'olds the World record don't you

know!"

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Hi

You say your an HGV driver? why not get a driving job? there are many haulage firms and a shortage of drivers, you would need to do a french familiarisation course it costs around 2000 euros, but would be worth it maybe!.

Arriving with a lump sum is no guarentee of ongoing success, many have returned to UK after initial funds have dried up and have been unable to earn sufficient income.

I am sure many here have been able to find an income from some activity, and am open to dissagreement, but would say also, many are "just hanging on in there". living from year to year, which can be very stressful.

France is not easy by any stretch of imagination, apart from a handfull of major cities, ( which alot of us came here to escape from ), France can only be best described as poor financially. The social system seems to have a strangle hold on the economy, and the commercial world are many many years behind the western business model, they just dont know how to do business! 

Some may not agree, but my take on things would be, if you arrive with nothing and fail to acheive some kind of miracle by way of jobs and housing I think you could be back in the UK very quickly.

Whatever you decide, keep intouch I am sure everyone will be interested in hearing how things are going, and you never know, a strong positive attitude and anything is possible,

best of luck

 

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[quote user="jackrabbitslims"]

We plan to rent out our house in the UK for a year and rent somewhere in the Pyrenees\Languedoc.  This doesn't phase us at all.  We are simply worried about earning enough to get by.  [/quote]

Sorry forget to mention this inprevious post,

Renting a house does not work quite the same way as in UK, you will need to prepare a dossier which you would submit to agency or proprietaire, bank statements, employers reference of income, previous rental references etc etc.

When we rented our first house, we were a little lucky because it was unoccupied, but still had to jump thru hoops to get it, when we moved out about 7 or 8 people veiwed the house and after about a month we found out which ones had been successful.

Unlike in UK where you can view a house one day and move in the next, again, another example of the french lack of business skills. 

Try and find something privately if at all possible.

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[quote user="tj"]another example of the french lack of business skills. 

[/quote]

No, it's an example of renting laws being stacked in favour of the tennant rather than the owner - resulting in owners being very careful to whom they choose to rent out to (hence the dossiers, time etc).

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