UK reg. Vans

[LesFlamands]

More than the usual number of UK reg. builders vans around at the moment in our area, some are signwritten. Even saw someone trying to inconspicuously unload plasterboard from a British van into a English owned bar in the middle of a village in 19 on Sunday afternoon with clients sitting outside.

I know I'm preaching to the converted as I'm sure the righteous membership on here wouldn't dream of using anyone 'on the black' but if I was having trouble finding work I think I'd be doing something about it.

[Le Plombier]

My sentiments also my friend

Le Plombier

[mooky]

Can someone tell me please. If you have a UK Ltd company but are only working over here, and have no siret number is that legal or not.

I know someone who has been doing it for years. He says there is a loophole in the law that allows it. His accountant seems to agree.

[Albert the InfoGipsy]

I'm not sure how insurance and tax matters are dealt with, but French law does recognise that foreign 'artisans' can work here legally on a temporary basis.

Loi n°96-603 du 5 juillet 1996 relative au développement et à la promotion du commerce et de l'artisanat

Article 17-1Créé par Ordonnance n°2008-507 du 30 mai 2008 - art. 16

I. - Un professionnel souhaitant exercer l'une des activités mentionnées au I de l'article 16 qui est ressortissant d'un Etat membre de la Communauté européenne ou d'un autre Etat partie à l'accord sur l'Espace économique européen peut exercer en France, à titre temporaire et occasionnel, le contrôle effectif et permanent d'une des activités visées au I du même article, sous réserve d'être légalement établi dans un de ces Etats pour y exercer la même activité.

http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexte.do?cidTexte=LEGITEXT000005621315&dateTexte=20090402

The activities concerned are:

Liste relative aux métiers entrant dans le champ

des activités soumises à qualification

professionnelle mentionnées au I de l’article 16

de la loi du 5 juillet 1996 et dans la loi

no 46-1173 du 23 mai 1946

I. - Entretien et réparation des véhicules et des

machines : réparateur d’automobiles, carrossier,

réparateur de cycles et motocycles, réparateur de

matériels agricoles, forestiers et de travaux publics.

II. - Construction, entretien et réparation des bâtiments :

métiers de gros oeuvre, de second oeuvre et de finition

du bâtiment.

III. - Mise en place, entretien et réparation des

réseaux et des équipements utilisant les fluides

ainsi que des matériels et équipements destinés à

l’alimentation en gaz, au chauffage des immeubles

et aux installations électriques : plombier,

chauffagiste, électricien, climaticien et installateur

de réseaux d’eau, de gaz ou d’électricité.

IV. - Ramonage : ramoneur.

V. - Soins esthétiques à la personne autres que

médicaux et paramédicaux et modelages esthétiques

de confort sans finalité médicale : esthéticien.

VI. - Réalisation de prothèses dentaires : prothésiste

dentaire.

VII. - Préparation ou fabrication de produits frais

de boulangerie, pâtisserie, boucherie, charcuterie et

poissonnerie, préparation ou fabrication de glaces

alimentaires artisanales : boulanger, pâtissier,

boucher, charcutier, poissonnier et glacier.

VIII. - Activité de maréchal-ferrant : maréchal-ferrant.

IX. - Coiffure.

 

[Anton Redman]

[quote user="mooky"]

Can someone tell me please. If you have a UK Ltd company but are only working over here, and have no siret number is that legal or not.

I know someone who has been doing it for years. He says there is a loophole in the law that allows it. His accountant seems to agree.

[/quote]

Not based on anything I have ever read. Where is his accountant registered to do business  / provide advice ? Will his accountant quote chapter and verse and put it in writing ?

[Maricopa]

[quote user="Albert the InfoGipsy"]

I'm not sure how insurance and tax matters are dealt with, but French law does recognise that foreign 'artisans' can work here legally on a temporary basis.

II. - Construction, entretien et réparation des bâtiments :

métiers de gros oeuvre, de second oeuvre et de finition

du bâtiment. 

[/quote]

This should help the OP in this thread.

[homepride62]

hi all , my friend has house in france hes asked me to go out there an plaster it for him , as not great deal going on in uk i thinkin why not , will do it for beer an food , can sameone tell me is that workin on the black or helping a friend ? many thanks

[Tony F Dordogne]

[quote user="homepride62"]hi all , my friend has house in france hes asked me to go out there an plaster it for him , as not great deal going on in uk i thinkin why not , will do it for beer an food , can sameone tell me is that workin on the black or helping a friend ? many thanks[/quote]

Nice wind-up homepride - and come to think of it, the spelling errors have an air of familiarity about them :)

[cooperlola]

If you take money or benefits (free accommodation, food etc) and if he pays your costs not you, then it is working on the black.  The polish workers thread explains it all pretty well, I reckon, as well as explaining what can happen if you don't have your insurance etc sorted before you come over.

[homepride62]

hi so where the wind up? i need holiday, mate needs help plastering hes house , so your tellin me in france you cant help people or mates out ? now that a wind up , sorry about the spellin misstake to much txting lol

[tj]

You know, under EU law it is perfectly legal for a british building company to work anywhere in europe, the only question is, are they really just working away from home or infact are they resident here.....

 

[homepride62]

hi ya dont live in france , just helping mate out , thats cool france here i come , lol

[Will]

I think the clue is in the words 'à titre temporaire et occasionnel' in Albert's link.

Of course, the French system has the last laugh. Even if the work can be done legally, you will not get any of the statutory guarantees that you should have when using a French business. This may be no big deal unless you sell the house within 10 years when you may, depending on your buyer and the notaires, and the sort of work that has been done, have to take out an 'assurance dommage ouvrage' to cover building defects.

 

[Cat]

Did you not manage to get registered in France in the end then Homepride? 

[quote user="homepride62"]

   Hi your hubby will need 6 years proof he was a plasterer from company or person he work for, you can do this yourself, i went on 3 day course was a waste of time, not sure if you still have to do it now,mine was in domfont, i went to laval to see c an m they told me to go to prefecture all he said  was to  get letter to prove you been spread for 6 years, then get it translated to french, i thought can"t be bothered so now working in uk, will have another go at some point, all the best paul

[/quote]

[homepride62]

hi , no been to busy here so just using france for holidays , will, why would you need insurance for plastering if it falls of then you do it again free of charge if it was your fault ? well i would, but have i have seen some plastering out in france by english builders lol, as the saying goes steve wonder would love to see it , that is where i come in with my mate he know my standard of work , an i need a change of scenery , sorry about the grammer x

[LesFlamands]

The vast majority of these vans are builders from the UK working for cash.

In the unlikely case that someone, somewhere is working legitimately under the 'temporaire et occassionelle' provision of the law, ignoring the insurance issues, what happens about VAT/TVA, who gets reimbursed for the TVA paid on materials and what happens about the reduced rate TVA on materials and labour which applies to a lot of renovation work.

The most annoying aspect from my point of view are the homeowners who won't even get an estimate from a local Artisan either because of the language barrier or because they are convinced that they'll be ripped off. Even worse are the blinkered idiots who believe that UK plumbing and electrics is the only way to go and not only gets a UK plumber and electrician out here working on the black but gets them to bring all the materials with them as well.

I'm beginning to realise that vandalized UK reg. cars is only the start of it. There now seem to be so many Brits. who have taken up residence here but have no intention of getting involved with anything French - especially the language, it not really suprising that we a seeing so much animosity. It is just a shame that the authorities don't do more about the UK vans especially when times are so hard for people trying to make a living legitemately.

 

[Will]

An artisan in France needs assurance because that's what the French system demands. To say that you would replace the plaster if it falls off is missing the point - it's much the same thing as saying that you can't be bothered to get properly registered in France because it's too complicated, you don't speak the language, you don't want to get documents translated, a man in the pub said you don't need to do it, we all all Europeans, or any of the other hundreds of excuses. Not having a properly and legally registered vehicle is another example of the same thing.

A UK company or a UK vehicle does not necessarily mean the person is not working legitimately in France, but in many cases they are not.

There is just one, very simple, rule - this is France, so do things the French way. Why, other than laziness or ignorance, would you need to do it any other way? There are plenty of people who do understand the French system and are bilingual who can help you. E-mail me and I will send you a web link for somebody who can - near to Domfront.

Les Flamands makes a good point about TVA. However, many British businesses think that they can operate under the micro regime, or even the new auto-entrepreneur version, so they do not get involved in TVA. As a result the client ends up paying 19.6% instead of the 5.5% they would pay a fully-registered tradesman. And all too often the artisan gets the client to buy materials themselves, thus getting round the micro-business turnover restrictions, and which additionally means that, in effect, the client misses out on the 10-year assurance cover (not to mention often using products that do not comply with French standards so are effectively illegal).

Unfortunately for Les Flamands and similar French-registered British artisans the authorities are too busy dealing with major scams on large French building and civil engineering projects to be too bothered with the cash-in-hand odd job men; the perception is that everybody in France is on the fiddle anyway (and there is a lot of truth in that). However, most people do a certain amount of legitimate work that goes through the books rather than being entirely off the radar, and those on whom checks are carried out are usually those who are registered.

[Chancer]

Your last sentence Will is very true and encouragement enough for those undecided which way to go at the moment [:D]

[Stan Streason]

Completed 6 weeks ago.  Have not been back since.  The english agent recommended an english builder who recommended an english electrician and an english pool maintenace family who recommended an english company (in France) supplying and installing log burning stoves.  Everyone (even the poolman) is registered with a siret in France.

Am I wrong in using only English?  I would be hellishly difficult doing anything else from this distance.

[AnOther]

[quote user="Will"]However, most people do a certain amount of legitimate work that goes through the books rather than being entirely off the radar, and those on whom checks are carried out are usually those who are registered.[/quote]Sounds remarkably like what goes on in another country with which we are all intimately familiar [Www]

[Chancer]

In the UK I always maintained that to avoid being searched for you had to appear somewhere on the radar whether it be employed or claiming benefits, those that existed in some way or another, but didnt appear fiscally were usually subject to scrutiny.

Claiming incapacity benefit seemed to be the best safe haven, after all someone incapacitated could hardly be working on the black now could they? [Www]

[homepride62]

The vast majority of these vans are builders from the UK working for cash, but how many of these vans have got upto date english road tax not that many iv seen, now to me that is taking the micheal, as for quotes well , dick turnpin would av been proud, 50mtrs of roof to strip an replace to me about a weeks work , i know to be registered is france is not cheap but he wanted 3000 euros labour now you tell me that is cheap ? well end of day i done both sides for the cost of what he want for the slates, plus i did want to get registered it was hard so thought will leave it for now, then you come on here people asking i need say plasterer , then people are saying if you can get one in a week he must be no good well thanks for that i was just starting out an didnt want to work on the black , so stayed in uk anyway will go an help my mate cos that is what i do , bon chance to anyone trying to make a living in france x sorry about the spellin an grammer but thats me

[AnOther]

[quote user="J.Rs gone native"]Claiming incapacity benefit seemed to be the best safe haven, after all someone incapacitated could hardly be working on the black now could they? [Www][/quote]Walking on the wild side there JR [Www]