Lindnarden Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 Morning all,recently registered as an autoentreneur and everything seems to be fine (although according to a recent leter my chosen profession, website designer, is apparently under dicussion at government level at to it's validity within the sytem [8-)]) I do keep getting letters from Reunica (as well as a startling number of other 'official' bodies) imploring me to give them money for my "regimes de retraites, complementaire obligatoire" Ignoring the oxymorononic last two words is this something I need to sign up to, an optional additional or a sales pitch.All help as always gratefully received.[:D] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnOther Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 Not to belittle your profession in any way and good luck to you but I'm not too surprised to hear that it is being discussed at high level.What is a web designer ?I'm not for sure but at the same time, like almost anybody these days I could knock out a basic website and call myself one and who's to argue with it ?I'm afraid that this type ephemeral academic activity is the sort of thing which is going to scupper the auto-entrepreneur scheme at least in term of participants qualifying for health cover on the back of it. It's just too nebulous and open to abuse and fiddling.I've said from the day this scheme was proposed that it was too good to be true, time will tell.As I say, not a go at you at all, just an observation [8-|] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 [quote user="Lindnarden"]Morning all,recently registered as an autoentreneur and everything seems to be fine (although according to a recent leter my chosen profession, website designer, is apparently under dicussion at government level at to it's validity within the sytem [8-)]) I do keep getting letters from Reunica (as well as a startling number of other 'official' bodies) imploring me to give them money for my "regimes de retraites, complementaire obligatoire" Ignoring the oxymorononic last two words is this something I need to sign up to, an optional additional or a sales pitch.All help as always gratefully received.[:D][/quote]There's a certain confusion here. Among the many obligatory charges, you pay 'retraite de base' and 'retraite complementaire'.The complementaire bit refers to the fact that it is in addition to the base not whether you have a choice or not.But, there is also the possibility that you are being asked to sign up for extra - i.e. non compulsory insurance - and you should just ignore it if you don't want it. Do not sign anything. If they are asking you to sign something then I would assume it is extra. Your Obligatory payments will be taken as you have started the business. The confusion is caused by that fact that the mutuelles that are used to collect your payments also offer lots of voluntary insurance schemes aimed at new business owners. Also any language difficulties don't help for those not fluent - being in French and also in new jargon as well.If you are not sure, go to the chambre de commerce and ask for advice. Danny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindnarden Posted February 28, 2009 Author Share Posted February 28, 2009 Thanks Danny - my overall game plan was to do nothing until it seemed almost too late. Ernie,Fee free to call yourself a website designer -you may not have had the benefit of the ten years experience I had designing and implementing global web based applications for assorted investment banks - but like you say anyone can call themselves anything....perhaps I'll retrain as a plumber that sounds a little less ephemeral [:)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnOther Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 I sense you have taken some umbridge at my comments despite my making it clear, or so I thought, that nothing was directed at you personally nor any disrespect towards your profession intended.I simply make the point that academic and non physically productive activities are open to abuse within the auto-entrepreneur framework as it appears to currently stand, hence I presume the discussions being held in high places.[:D] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert the InfoGipsy Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 ErnieY,I usually have the greatest of respect for your opinions, but in this case you seem to be saying that anything that doesn't deliver something you can weigh on a scales is inherently dodgy and anyone who claims expertise in "academic and non physically productive activities" is likely to be trying to fiddle the system.I'm a database analyst/programmer. The only output of my activities is that data gets moved from one system to another and restructed along the way. Does that mean that the people who pay (lots of) good money for my work are being conned?I totally fail to see why these activities are "open to abuse within the auto-entrepreneur framework" any more than gardening or car repairs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert the InfoGipsy Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 [quote user="Lindnarden"] I do keep getting letters from Reunica (as well as a startling number of other 'official' bodies) imploring me to give them money for my "regimes de retraites, complementaire obligatoire" Ignoring the oxymorononic last two words is this something I need to sign up to, an optional additional or a sales pitch.[/quote]I've seen a similar question elsewhere and in that case it related to compulsory cotisations for employees. As an AE is highly unlikely to have any employees this would mean you don't need to pay them. However, you would definitely need to fill in a form they should have sent you, saying that you have no employees.As an AE all your compulsory payments should be covered by the standard flat rate cotisations. If anyone asks for more I'd suggest checking with whichever organisation (chambre de commerce or ...) you are registered through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnOther Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 That's not what I'm saying at all, absolutely not, did what I said really come over as that [:-))]The point I'm making, which I'm obviously having some difficulty getting across is that, in some fields, and I used web designer as an example but to which you could equally add analyst, programmer, or even clairvoyant if you wish, for any profession where the output or product cannot readily be measured, quantified, or valued, under the current auto-entrepreneur scheme anyone, even a complete novice chancer, could set themselves up as such as nothing more than a ploy to obtain health cover and I don't believe such a situation can or will be allowed to persist.I am neither web designer nor analyst/programmer (nor clairvoyant) nevertheless what is there to stop me setting myself up in any of those disciplines and ghost trading with someone to demonstrate some turnover and income and qualify for health cover because of it ?I repeat, I'm not accusing anyone of anything nor denying the worth of their persuits, merely pointing out the loophole [:)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert the InfoGipsy Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 ErnieY, yes, it did come across like that. The assumption that seemed to come across loud & clear was that anything with a non-physical deliverable (telecoms consultancy, anyone?) was as likely to be a fiddle as a real business.And why limit your fantasies to professions liberales?Or you dig your garden & I dig mine, but we bill each other as AE gardeners.You put up some shelves in your house & I put some up in mine, but we bill each other as AE hommes tout faire.You take some photos at your daughter's wedding but I bill you as a photographer.I eat the apples off my tree and you eat yours, but we bill each other as AE fruit growers.Need I continue?If the 'complete novice chancer' is not going to actually have any turnover then he'll be out of the AE regime after a year (that's one of the rules). I'd expect that after a while they'll tighten things further.If he's going to fake turnover (see above) then he could equally do it as a Micro BIC or even a réel.As I have said before, people on forums like this sometimes have an inflated view of how much the French government concerns itself with us. I don't know how many Brits, or other immigrants, are going to sign up as AEs, but it's clearly a tiny number compared to the hoards of French registrants. I very much doubt that Sarko or Novelli are terribly worried about the prospect of a small percentage of AEs getting into the French system by registering fictitious businesses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shablwe Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 I totally agree - we are so conceited if we believe that a handful of Brits who may/maynot abuse the AE system would cause Sarko to change one of his most successful (?) projects. Oh and thankyou Albert for all the great suggestions.As someone 'new' to this forum it is disappointing to encounter the faint whiff of anger and resentment from some 'established members' for those who are struggling to set up lives in France .... I thought the forum was a place to support and inform? if creative use of the AE system can help a diabetic realise his dreams, enable early retirees who have worked for over a decade to emigrate, or enable a young family to remain, then good for them - how about a little assistance and goodwill? Numerous threads from really desperate people (not all freeloaders just unfortunates) since the health regs changed - i for one wish them well...... now could someone please outline a cast iron, incontestable way to prove 5 years residence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancer Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 A.E. Has been a real success story for the government, I saw a report on TF1 the other day that said that applications were being received at the rate of 1300 per day (it may have been per week but I think it was per day) an awfull lot of this must have been existing commerce that could not be registered, I dont want to call it black, so is good for the tax and social revenue.Artisans are also getting peeved at the "unfair" competition, to me it is not unfair, the government has just removed an enormous entry barrier, the artisans are actually peeved to have "competition" for the first time.I recently saw a public information advert for A.E. which was done by a Brit selling pot d'echappements en inox at a classic car show, he looked and sounded a bit of a hooray Henry just like the typical parody of an Englishman in a French film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony F Dordogne Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 [quote user="shablwe"]Numerous threads from really desperate people (not all freeloaders just unfortunates) since the health regs changed - i for one wish them well...... now could someone please outline a cast iron, incontestable way to prove 5 years residence?[/quote]I seem to recall that five years worth of tax returns has been mentioned as the most appropriate way of proving 5 years of residence, attestation from the Mairie may also work if you've been resident here full time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 [quote user="Lindnarden"]Morning all,recently registered as an autoentreneur and everything seems to be fine (although according to a recent leter my chosen profession, website designer, is apparently under dicussion at government level at to it's validity within the sytem [8-)]) [:D][/quote]Although web designer isn't listed separately, most ('genuine' / experienced) professionals working in this area will have come from either a graphic design or a programming background (both of which are listed). I ran a web business here in the UK for a number of years and my background was programming (server side / db). I could do the graphics too but my primary interest was designing custom server side applications. Could you not register under your 'primary' area of expertise? NB the reference to 'genuine' / experienced wasn't meant to infer you weren't a bona fide web developer but to distinguish from the 'I can put a (usually naff and non standards compliant!) website together with front page' brigade - of which, sadly, there are an awful lot. As an aside, perhaps requiring people to demonstrate a background in either graphic design / programming rather than having a generic 'web designer' category is a good thing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancer Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 I reckon that it will be a long time before any minimum turnover restrictions etc are enfoced on A.E. if ever.My reasoning is that with 130k "new" businesses per day (or week if I got it wrong) paying cotisations that they would not otherwise have done, a handfull of enterprising people (chancers if you prefer) ripping the ar5e out of it to gain healthcare is a small overhead to pay.The time will come once the new applications become a trickle and everyone is registered and traceable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 Does anyone know what the minimum payments proposed for health cover cotisation payments under AE are?I am registered as an artisan running a micro BIC and even if my turnover is zilch, I still have a minimum cotisation demand for health payments. I assume that it is the same for the AE.Danny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clair Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 When registered as an AE, the level of contributions is a % of the turnover.Details here: http://www.auto-entrepreneur.fr/charges-sociales-creation-entreprise-individuelle.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 Thanks Clair,I understand the percentages etc but I can't find any info on minimum cotisations payable like the Micro BIC set up. The cotisations under a Micro BIC are also based on percentages of turnover but there are minimum levels to pay regardless of the turnover. I was wondering if the AE is planned to operate likewise.If not, then ErnieY's comments and concerns about it being abused by non French are quite valid really. Especially after the palaver with the health issues in the last few years.And of course, for those like me who are registered and (rightfully) have to pay the obligatory charges to be part of the 'system', it seems crazy that someone can just sign up and declare a pittance or zero turnover to avoid any payments and yet benefit from health and social cover.I would be very surprised if it is possible. After all the hassle of those who found themselves outside of the health system fairly recently, I can't believe that now it is OK for non French 'non actifs' to just sign up under the AE without any obligations and be covered health wise.I had a brief scan of the pages in your link but I didn't see any mention of base levels. It does take me a while to get to grips with the business language anyway and I am sure it would still be hard for me in English. It is just jargon central in whatever language.Danny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clair Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 Danny, I believe the answer is to be found here:[quote]Pas de chiffre d'affaires = pas de charges sociale ou fiscale. (http://www.auto-entrepreneur.fr/)[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 Wow, thank you - that was quick.Ok, so the next logical (to me) question is that if you declare a zero turnover and therefore don't pay any social charges does that mean that you must have another source of health cover or if you don't, they take back your carte vitale because you are not paying in anything?Is there an assumption that those who start up an AE already benefit from health cover from another source partner's job/ business etc?I hope I am not being stupid but if it is the case that there is no payments and yet the person is ale to benefit from health cover, there will be a great temptation for lots of people to just abuse it.Apart from any moral considerations, what is to stop us johnny foreigners turning up in France and just working on the black, declaring zero under AE and still be covered for health and social care.Maybe I am misunderstanding things but if not, it seems really open to abuse by anyone.Danny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert the InfoGipsy Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 In all the official bumph I've read about the AE statut, plus reading various unofficial sites, both French & English, I have seen no mention of a minimum cotisation requirement. The nearest thing to that is the statement that if you make a nil return for four quarters on the trot then you are out.As many other people have said, most of the new auto-entrepreneurs are already in the French system, one way or another. All the French ones (the vast majority) have cover by one route or another. Brits with E106, E121 or 5 years residence or ex-E106 from before 2007 have health cover. The only people who might benefit from fiddling would be recent immigrants whose E106 cover has ended. Anyone got any idea of numbers? Then you have to subtract from that number the ones who genuinely need to earn money -- I'm in that category and so are others -- and therefore will be declaring perfectly genuine figures.. So are the French government going to worry about (I'm guessing) a few hundred foreigners (not just Brits) who might get access to the health system by declaring a tiny turnover, compared with hundreds of thousands of people who have nothing to gain from registering a dummy business?PARIS, 24 mars 2009 - Hervé Novelli, dans une interview au quotidien Metro :Nous sommes presque arrivés à 100 000 auto-entrepreneurs. C’est un vrai succès. Lorsque j’ai créé ce statut, j’avais fait des prévisions de 100 000 autoentrepreneurs au 1er semestre, et de 200 000 sur l’ensemble de l’année. Au rythme où nous allons, nous devrions facilement atteindre les 300 000 en 2009. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 [quote user="Albert the InfoGipsy"]the ones who genuinely need to earn money -- I'm in that category and so are others -- and therefore will be declaring perfectly genuine figures.. [/quote]assuming that you are an honest, upright (foreign) citizen of which I have no doubt. But I know many people who do loads on the black and are not so honest and will abuse this route to gain access to health cover.I realise that AE is not aimed at foreigners but after all the hassle about foreign non actifs health cover and people who came to live in France in all good faith and paid their dues to discover that the rules had changed, it is bizarre that there is now a route for them to live here without spending a bean.I am sure Cooperlola might find it a bit of a kick in the face after all her work campaigning over the health cover issues.Now after all that, it seems that anyone can come to France, start an AE, declare zero and be covered. Bizarre.Of course, I am assuming that if they have no other means of cover, then their cover related to AE remains.Danny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert the InfoGipsy Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 If they declare zero then after a year their rights under AE lapse. If they declare a pittance whilst working on the black then they are likely to draw attention to themselves. Anyway, what's to stop someone on a Micro not declaring any work/income above the minimum cotisation level. Is someone who does 'only' 10% (pick your own percentage) of their work on the black OK?I wouldn't be surprised if some minimum was introduced at some point in the future. However, I'd guess that it would work by saying that you only get health, or whatever, rights once your cotisations pass a certain threshold, rather than imposing a minimum payment level, in the way that the earlier Micro regime does. Setting compulsory cotisation levels of hundreds of euro a month would wreck the whole AE setup for its main market: the French. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancer Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 [quote user="Clair"][quote]Pas de chiffre d'affaires = pas de charges sociale ou fiscale. [/quote][/quote]That was the primary thrust of their advertising campaign and was mentioned several times including by the English guy.They have a lot more people to draw into the net yet before making any changes, I would expect them to get even tougher on black workers first to encourage the maximum of people into the scheme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 Albert, you are right there is nothing to stop someone declaring a tiny income on a micro but at least they have to pay their minimum contributions even if they do loads of black work. I am not suggesting I approve of that in any case. Just highlighting an interesting difference.Your idea of what might happen seems pretty reasonable to me. It may well be in the pipeline but it is obviously not a major focus at the moment.Danny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debnfamily Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 The guy fixing our roof was talking about this the other day and what he said doesn't match what has been said here. His understanding is that he is in the system as an AE doing general property maintenance (which he was advised to put himself as rather than specifically a roofer) but that he won't have any health cover under this scheme for the first year. Has he been misled or misunderstood? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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