Auto entrepreneur and pension

[londoneye]

Hi, I have been registered as an AE for 6 years now and was wondering if the income generates anything towards pension contributions?

If so, given that I am thinking of closing down our business in France shortly, does anyone know what the process would be to ensure that any pension contributions are considered when calculating my UK pension (for which I am not yet eligible).

Thank you.

[lindal1000]

It depends on your turnover. If you have been averaging around 10000 euros year then you may have some quarters that count towards your pension.

[NormanH]

You can always for a statement of what you have accrued..

https://www.lassuranceretraite.fr/cs/Satellite/PUBPrincipale/SalariesPlus55/Comprendre-Retraite55/Releve-Carriere55?packedargs=null

[Foxie]

As said it goes on turnover.

To accrue 1 trimestre towards a pension:

Resellers need approx 5k turnover.

Artisans need approx 3k

Prof lib need approx 2k

The max you can accrue in 1 year is 4 trimestres, even if your turnover is more than 4 times the amount needed for 1 trimestre.

That's the theory, but if you're prof lib under CIPAV then you can go whistle because they don't like auto entrepreneurs so they made up their own rules. I think they've been crediting AEs with exactly half of the entitlement they are supposed to get. It's still rumbling on through the courts I believe. If you're an AE with CIPAV you don't normally get an answer if you request a pension forecast, they ignore you.

PS Norman's link is for employees, not AEs. You need to request a statement from your own retirement caisse (which hopefully isn't CIPAV).

[Foxie]

Sorry, another belated thought on this - If you're not planning on working in the UK between now and retirement, you'll probably want to make sure that the UK and not France takes responsibility for your pension when the time comes. If France was the last country you paid pension contributions in before you retired, and if your pension is significant, in theory according to EU regulations France should be responsible for paying your pension. Depending on your circumstance it might be better to write the French pension off, rather than find yourself stuck in the French system for the whole of your retirment. Just a thought, it may be something you want to look into.

[idun]

 Can you do that Foxie?

I do not believe that one's french pension has to be significant for France to be considered 'responsible' if one is living in France. My belief is that it simply has to be paid by the french state pensions.

And I don't understand what you mean by responsible for paying one's pension. As far as I am concerned, the country one worked in* is responsible for the pension, a full working life is grouped together then it is paid pro rata by each country. *And if one makes voluntary payments in say the UK, then that builds up that pension, AS would making voluntary payments in France.

ie chez idun, current french pensions, the state one paid pro rata, next year full UK pension as voluntary contributions were made up to get a full pension.

I am curious as to how this will affect those with businesses in France (paying into the french system) when the time comes. Although let's face it some fonctionnaires interpret the rules very differently.

[NormanH]

[quote user="Foxie"]Sorry, another belated thought on this - If you're not planning on working in the UK between now and retirement, you'll probably want to make sure that the UK and not France takes responsibility for your pension when the time comes. If France was the last country you paid pension contributions in before you retired, and if your pension is significant, in theory according to EU regulations France should be responsible for paying your pension. Depending on your circumstance it might be better to write the French pension off, rather than find yourself stuck in the French system for the whole of your retirment. Just a thought, it may be something you want to look into.[/quote]

The' last country' has nothing to do with it except that you apply through their system.(in theory at any rate)

My OAP is paid directly from Newcastle and my various French ones paid from the various French 'caisses' that I worked for.

This has all been explained very well on here by parsnips in the past  and I have explained the rules about French pensions and health cover also.

[Foxie]

idun - I agree, my point really was that if AE earnings added up to just a few trimestres, it might be better not to claim it at all - you're not obliged to. If you don't ask for it, they won't chase you to pay you it. Yes the pension is funded by the country where you paid the cotis but the entire amount is actually 'paid' as in handed to you one country. As no doubt Norman has explained, and I'll no doubt get slapped down again if I say any more so I won't. Sorry I spoke ;)

Friendly forum, this !

[idun]

Foxie said: Yes the pension is funded by the country where you paid the cotis but

the entire amount is actually 'paid' as in handed to you one country.

Don't be sorry you spoke, at all.

It is just that this is important and should be clear.

Our situation is that we live in the UK. We moved back here three years prior to the french pension starting and that started four years ago, and we had to apply for it via Newcastle. Newcastle pensions dept then had no more to do with it. They don't know how much is paid or anything more about it and probably never will. 

The french pension is paid every single month, goes into our french bank account, as we have never requested it do other than that. The CNAV and complementaire and our french bank and CPAM all know that we live in the UK. As we still pay cotisations in France on this pension, then the S1(E121) dept in Newcastle require a french S1.

It is my belief that say someone works or even runs a b&b/gite etc for X years in France, paying cotisations, then IF they remain in France, then no matter that they may get a full UK pension, the pension obtained from their french entreprise will take precedence over the UK pension. The consequences being that the UK is under no obligation to issue an S1, (so cheaper for the UK) and that the person remains in the french health system via their work/ business. They will have to pay whatsoever cotisations they need to on their french pension.

If one does not claim a french pension due and then remains in France and claims an S1 from the UK, just how does that work legally? I would rather like to know.

And I cannot remember, but I thought that the pension systems were in touch with one another anyway, we certainly had all the NI contributions paid in the UK included, so that the french pension people could work out a a comprehensive working life. And then we were paid pro rata on the years actually paid in France. I cannot remember asking the french pension people to get in touch with the UK, at all, I cannot, but I wouldn't stake my life on it![:D]

I certainly know what does and will happen to us. IF I have any of the rest wrong, please show me the textes where it is clearly shown.

[Rabbie]

Just speaking from my own experience my UK retirement pension is based on my NI contributions over my working life. I also get a a Swedish pension based on my contributions when I was working there. My application for the Swedish pension was made via the DWP in Newcastle and took about 3 months to be processed. I now receive one payment a month from the UK and another payment from Sweden.

This would confirm what Norman has said. I don't know how the actual amounts were calculated so I will stay out of that decision but I believe that Idun is correct

[NormanH]

[quote user="Foxie"]idun - I agree, my point really was that if AE earnings added up to just a few trimestres, it might be better not to claim it at all - you're not obliged to. If you don't ask for it, they won't chase you to pay you it. Yes the pension is funded by the country where you paid the cotis but the entire amount is actually 'paid' as in handed to you one country. As no doubt Norman has explained, and I'll no doubt get slapped down again if I say any more so I won't. Sorry I spoke ;)

Friendly forum, this ![/quote]

It is ...very, but please use look at what has been explained before, and read it before muddying the waters with inaccuracies.

That was what lead to the acrimonious demise of a certain other Forum.

[NormanH]

Oh goodness here we go again.

There are separate issues here.

I) Where you do the paperwork to apply for your pension.

Technically this is in the last country you worked in (assuming you are still living there)

2) Who pays.  As explained by the site of both countries your contributions are totalled

First to see if you have enough to qualify for a pension (for example 30/35 years, (or 160  trimestres in the French system)

and second to work out the proportion each country pays.

That is the theory, but as Rabbie and I have found out sometimes it works out that the UK gives you an OAP and another country gives you one or more small ones based on your service.

3) Who pays for your health care?

If you live in a country that is paying you a pension even the smallest one that country is responsible for your health care (this gets wooly in France because in practice if your pension is so small that it is offered in one lump sum payment  France seems to ignore it)

If you have worked in other countries but live in one from which you don't receive a pension, then it is the one who pays the biggest pension that is responsible through the S1 system

[Rabbie]

The waters can get muddied by the fact that some EU countries have different pension ages than others. I got my UK pension when I was 65 but could not get my Swedish pension until I was 67. As pension ages seem to be constantly changing i imagine things will get more complicated rather than simpler

[idun]

Rabbie, I don't think it gets more complicated really.

We just have to keep up with each new rule regarding pensions. So if we do, we should know the age we can get a pension from the countries paid in to. Take what is due and abide by the rules at that particular point in time and acknowledge that they could change with a new pension payment.

[Coquelicot]

Be careful not to end up without health cover in between closing down the business and being eligible for cover via your pension - either from the UK via S1 or from France given you have enough trimestres.

[idun]

Wise words Coquelicot, wise words!