HELP!! Guidance on a Roofing Bill required!

[Sarahd]

Hello everyone.

I posted a while back concerning a possible dispute between myself and a roofing company and people helpfully responded to my post with guidance on the average euro rate per hour for roofing work.

In advance of receiving the bill from the roofing company I wrote to them telling them that according to my records they had performed 24 man hours of work in total (ie. 24 hours based upon individual man hours of work from a two man roofing team)

I asked them to send me a bill based upon the 24 man hours of work plus separately the material cost of the replacement tiles.

Well I have now received the bill..............................................................................

The fact that they have had to show in effect the rate per man hour in calculation of the bill I think has greatly helped my cause although the overall bill is not cheap.

I am happy with the labour cost and the cost of tiles however they have tried to make some money up with the following "tricks":

They have charged me for 2 hours preparation at their yard and for loading of their van.

 - Surely it does not take 2 hours to load a van with a few ladders and a few tiles????????????????

They have also charged me 250 euros for "forfait echafaudage echelle grande longueur plus echelle de toit".

This, I think, translates as "scaffolding", plus tall long ladder, and roofing ladder?

Interesting that one as no scaffolding whatsoever was used at any time during the roof repairs.

 

I would like peoples' guidance, therefore, as to

a) whether, as I think, 2 hours preparation for a simple roofing job is greatly exaggerated and should I be paying for yard work anyway which amounts to nothing more than loading the van with a few ladders and a few tiles?

Surely, this is not normal. Or is it?

b) The scaffolding issue obviously is irrelevant. And I will of course make this very, very clear to them.

Should I, however, be paying them any money (euros 250) for the privilidge of the roofing company using their own tall ladder and roofing ladder(s) in the course of their normal work?

Surely they are trying it on. Aren't they?

 

 

My feeling is that they are simply trying to make up money they feel they have lost by me insisting on a per hour breakdown of the bill?

Confirmation from people that my gut feeling that they are simply trying to charge me for spurious cost items to boost the cost of their bill (surprise, surprise!) would be greatly appreciated!

Sincere thanks in advance.

Merry Christmas everyone!

 

SarahD.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Pucette<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>Pucette<FONT><P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">"Qui ne connaît pas la campagne lhiver, ne connaît pas la campagne et ne connaît pas]

I didn't see the previous thread.

My understanding is that if you didn't agree a dévis prior to the works then they can charge what they like.

I should be interested to learn otherwise.

[Boiling a frog]

It is perfectly normal for travelling time/time spent getting material etc to be charged ,and I know that when equipment has to be hired it is also charged for.If you had received a devis then these charges may or may have not been hidden depending on the artisan Some devis are fairly simple ie so many square meters of tiles,wood for roofing and an overall labour charge with a total price other artisans may spell out every single item and an hourly rate but it is the same in the end the final price is the final price.However in your case you did not receive a devis because it was impossible for the roofers to estimate prior to starting work You are now in dispute The best of luck but at the end of the day remember you may become known as someone who does not pay up and you may  find it impossible to get anyone else to do work on your property.Word spreads very quickly. 

[Sarahd]

Thank you for the replies.

Would explain that yes a "devis" was obtained in advance of work commencing.

However, as my roof is old the clear understanding was that the quote was based upon a worst case scenario.

ie. if loose tiles in proximity of repair were disturbed by work on roof and such tiles themselves had to be replaced etc. - very common situation on an old roof. Impossible to know for certain until work commences.

If, however, work proved to be straightforward and surrounding area(s) of roof not disturbed then size of bill to be significantly reduced accordingly.

An understanding........therefore that final bill would be based upon final number of man-hours to perform the work.

Anyway, having commented as above, I certainly do not feel the roofing company are in a position whereby they can charge whatever they want for the final work. No way.

Bearing in mind scaffolding was not required and that only normal ladders / roofing ladders were used why should I be charged for scaffolding (as there was none!!) or for that matter pay for the luxury of the roofing company using its own ladders. No special ladders were required or for that matter hired.

Also, surely, two hours yard work (??????????) whatever that is....to presumably load van with tiles and a few ladders to my mind is a) totally unrealistic and b) totally absurd.

I do not intend to pay people for work that has not been performed and nor should I have to.

I am fully prepared, obviously, to pay people a legitimate amount for legitimate work. And will do so promptly once we mutually agree a sensible price.

Between client and company it is a two way street.

Being a roofing company or a builder even when working for an English client does not provide a licence to print money. Not as far as I'm concerned anyway. 

Anyway, thank you for the help and apologies for not making position clearer in my earlier post.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Piprob]

Like others who have replied, I wish you well SarahD.

You might say that builders get the press they deserve and, particularly in the UK, it is not good. The truth is that it is sometimes impossible to know what you are dealing with until or unless you start disturbing it. By then it is often too late to return things to the condition in which you found them. A sensible estimate of costs will take this into account.

Wise builders add an additional element of cost (mark-up) to the labour and material charges so as to recover their overheads which include stock costs, standing charges, and non-productive time. If they didn't do this, they would soon go bust. Any assumption that your builder is simply profiteering or 'ripping you off' may therefore be very wide of the mark.

If building construction, repair and maintenance costs could ever be calculated precisely in advance, for example like buying a pair of shoes, a tin of paint, or a tank full of petrol, this would be an extremely welcome development. Until that day, we can only rely on our sense of values.

[Russethouse]

I agree with PipRob here - wholeheartedly, you may be able to negotiate a small discount, thus preserving your reputation as a good and fair payer, without letting him think you are a walkover.(but if it was me and he said no, I wouldn't feel inclined to push it)

I suspect that if you 'nickel and dime' him he will just proceed as if you are a bad debt, a course to be avoided IMHO.

Probably not want you want to hear, hope it has a happy outcome.

[cabman]

I used to undertake building work in a previous life, until I fell off of a scaffold, but that's another story.

I missed your previous posting, but it seems you have asked for a breakdown of cost and that's what you got.

A devis would have allowed for the fixed costs. Your bill shows them separately.

2 hours to load up? Quite possibly, especially if your tiles had to be dug out from the back of the yard and then sorted for type/quality.Then there is unloading at the end of the job.

250euros wouldn't buy or hire any kind of proper scaffolding.

Depending on the height of your roof, hiring of long access ladders and cat-ladders would be normal. These would have to be collected and returned.

When in the building business we always tried to avoid these kind of open-ended repair jobs as a lack of trust often creeps in.

As with all of these things, whether it be roofers, car mechanics, TV repairs, even dentists, one often just has to pay up.

Fairness at these times is always subjective. 

[Teamedup]

I also believe that two hours is not unreasonable for the yard work, as it isn't just the yard work. It is all the office work too,  checking there was stock, ordering if necessary etc etc and the company accounts.

You have started dissecting this bill and now your builder has......... which does not surprise me. Therefore saying that you will pay for man hours actually worked, you will also have to pay for the use of the equipment upon which they had to climb to do that work.

[Punch]

What Teamdup says is correct. Yesterday (in horrendouis rain and cold winds!) we were roofing a property in North Mayenne which had storm damage from last week.

I arrived at the chantier at 10 am, having been at my workshop for three hours previously, making up the zinc soakers and cutting lengths of roofing underfelt to length, as well as loading up scaffolding and matearis, so as to save time on the job outdoors. Therefore it is not only loading up but many other things that could be attributed to the 2 hours that the original poster is not happy with.

Paul

[Pucette<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>Pucette<FONT><P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">"Qui ne connaît pas la campagne lhiver, ne connaît pas la campagne et ne connaît pas]

I'd be surprised if you got much change from a hire firm for the use of such ladders for a fortnight.

If your dévis stated that these charges were including then it is unreasonable to add them in; if they were not mentioned at all then they are negotiable.

[Sarahd]

Merry Christmas & Happy New Year to everyone!

Thank you all for your responses which greatly appreciated.

I have certainly taken on board what people have said in response to my posts and the points made by you are certainly valid points.

I have also spoken with a friend of mine back in England whose husband used to be a roofer which again has proved very interesting.

 

Based upon all that I have learned I have to say I still feel the roofing company concerned is trying it on.

Point One

Obviously if scaffolding had been used or for that matter special longer reach ladders had to be rented by the roofing company to perform the work then the additional Euros 250 amount charged would be justifiable.

I repeat: No scaffolding or special ladders were necessary to perform the work.

I obviously disagree that under such circumstances it is "normal" or acceptable practice to charge the client for such a cost item.

Why should anyone have to pay a roofer a special cost item for the privilidge of said roofer to use his own ladders / equipment in the course of his normal work?

Rather like paying a plumber for the cost of the tools he happens to be using (and which are his property and which he takes home with him at the end of the work) every time he calls to do a job.......................................................................

In any case any "running costs" for up-keep of such equipment, provided it is not special or hired equipment, surely should be factored into whatever the Artisan is charging for his hourly or daily rate.

Point Two  

Two hours yard work?

Fair enough but surely again should not such preparatory yard work be factored into the Roofer's hourly rate?

Then everyone, including most importantly the client will know exactly where they stand?

Having spoken to my friend's husband in the U.K. (the ex-roofer) he agrees that for a small roofing job, such as mine, it should not & does not take 2 hours to load a van with a limited number of tiles or to place the ladders on the top of the van.

As for sorting the tiles into neat piles in the roofer's yard?

This is surely down to the roofer and not the client. Normal business & running costs in running a roofing or building business. Not the responsibility of the client unless a consideration is factored into the builder's / roofer's hourly rate.

As I said before dealing with any type of builder / roofer is a two way street..........................

I think the majority of builders are undoubtedly trustworthy but I also think some of them try it on. Human nature I suppose.

Have a great New Year everyone!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Boiling a frog]

You did ask for guidance but it appears that you are not willing to accept the guidance given so take up your points with the roofer who I suspect will stick to his guns and will want paid. What you do then is up to you .

[Sarahd]

Have just received an unexpected visit from my roofer.

To cut a long story short they have agreed to drop the Euros 250 charge for the scaffolding and "special" long ladders.....................................................................................................

I asked him politely over a coffee to produce evidence of a "hire" charge receipt or bill for the long ladders and he smiled & said there had been a mistake and agreed to drop it.

He now has a cheque for a final bill which is acceptable to us both.....................................

 

A very pleasing result for me as finances are a little tight for me at the moment......................

Anyway, thanks again and please remember; there are two sides to every story......................

 

[Sarahd]

Double post.

[Teamedup]

I think that you have been rather fortunate really.

And please don't assume that certain things, well tools for the job, should be included in the going rates. I used to work in a clothing factory, one of my jobs as a pay clerk was to collect pennies from the girls after they had had their pay. They had to pay for scissors, thimbles and in some cases needles. They couldn't work without them, but had to pay for their own. How priviledged most of us are really. And this practice continued until the factory's demise about 7 years ago.  

 

[Sarahd]

Teamedup: I couldn't agree more with your sentiments & comments.

That is why I am agreat supporter of trade unions & with the concept of asking reasonable & polite questions when things seem unfair or unjustified.

On this particular question, however, how can it be justified to charge a client for a cost item that has not been incurred by the company performing the work?

Having had a look on the Internet standard high specification roofing ladders can be purchased from trade suppliers for as little as 600 to 700 euros.

They are not outrageously expensive. If looked after I am assured they can last for years.........................................................

How then can it be justified to charge a client 100's of euros for provision of standard & normal ladders/roofing ladders actually owned by the roofing company and used in the normal manner in the performance of their work?

Answer: It cannot be justified.

Sorry, but it really is as simple as that.

Happy New Year everyone!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Russethouse]

Sarah, I am glad you have a good outcome, however I think somewhere along the line there was a lack of goodwill between you and this has been the result.

Lets hope that the roofer was equally pleased with the outcome - news travels fast in the building line and it would be very annoying to be forced to pay travelling time because no one local wanted to do your work.

[Pucette<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>Pucette<FONT><P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">"Qui ne connaît pas la campagne lhiver, ne connaît pas la campagne et ne connaît pas]

Mmm, I tend to think the opposite, I think Sarah's probably got the start of a good reputation and a good working relationship should she ever require further works... it's impossible to judge what's reasonable without seeing the works and the invoice, for all we know she could still have paid over the odds, or under... but if the builder smiled and accepted the cheque he's probably happy and she's probably gone up in his estimation not down.

People round here love to make easy money out of soft touches, but they only respect people who know how to stand up for themselves.

[Russethouse]

Thats pretty much what I said in a previous reply; try but don't push too hard.

Hopefully circumstances will be more straightforward next time so the amount quoted, and accepted, is the amount paid. Neither party should start negotiating when the job is completed, in an ideal world.