Casual Labour rules

[ChrisnJules]

Happy New year to all

I need some advice please on the legality of giving work to none French registered tradesmen.

During the later part of last year Julie and I purchased a property in the Vendee that requires renovation. The property comprises a main house, an attached cottage and some out buildings that we also intend to convert into a second cottage. So several years worth of work required and a budget the size of the planet no doubt

Whilst the main house is reasonably sound it does require a new wooden floor installing on the first floor as many of the floor boards have deteriorated. There is also a bunch of other stuff to do, most of which given the time I would DIY. We have mains sewer and main water (fortunately down different pipes). However, the Cottage requires a new roof and substantial renovation.

Ok. My question is:  I intend to employ a French accredited builder for the major work on the cottage, but had planned to get some casual labour to help me with the DIY type work. I have been introduced to an english labourer who wants payment in cash, so I assume he is working in the 'black'. I have been told that not only is he operating illegally, but that I could be prosecuted for employing him. My English (and fully legal in France) architect also tells me that even he could be implicated if I fall foul of the law and would prefer not to do any work for me if I employ this individual. Now my view (from my simple english perspective) is that what this chap does with the money I pay him is no concern of mine, he either declares it or he doesn't. Clearly doing everything through accredited French builders will prove very expensive, so the financial benefits of using casual labour for the less complicated work is obvious.

Can anyone tell me what the real legal situation is please ?

[Russethouse]

I think what you have been told is quite corect, you could be prosecuted (people have been) for paying someone in this fashion (and so could the person doing the work).

Ignorance simply will not wash as an excuse.

Sorry - I'm sure its not what you wanted to hear.

[ChrisnJules]

Thanks Gay - that's exactly what I wanted to hear. I have no wish to end up in a French prison. Julie would nerver forgive me and anyway, she would probably sell my golf clubs........ 

[Val_2]

Everyone who works in France, even just for a couple of days like I do quite often, have to have a proper written contract which they and the employer sign, pay their charges and be paid no less than the standard SMIC rate of approx 7,61€/hour before charges. Your architect is very correct in saying not only you can be charged by the gendarmes but he too for knowingly having a non-contracted worker just on site who has no insurance or health cover and the penalties are very severe including prison and fines or loss of the property in compensation if a serious accident occurred. Your friend even if he had english health cover would also find that invalidated because it does not cover physical building work.

[ChrisnJules]

Thanks for this advice, it is appreciated.

I do not want to do any valid and professional builder out of work, but at the same time I don't really want to pay 30E an hour for someone to just help me out with some DIY. I do want to employ someone who is acting legally though and paying the appropriate tax etc. like any bona fida 'legit' person should do.

One question if I may please, is there anything that should insist upon if I do employ anyone on a casul basis ?  You mentioned having a proper contract, which is fair enough and also paying charges. What charges are these ? I can probably guess at national Insurance, tax and VAT type things, so are we saying that as long as the appropriate charges appear on their invoice, I am OK?

kind regards

Chris and Julie.

 

[Teamedup]

There is something called Cheque Emploi, I don't know whether there are any of these that would cover odd jobs, but it would be worth asking, your bank would provide them and probably a list of what they can be used for.

However, as the bloke you had considered employing wants cash, then he may not want to be int he system at all......... and all I can say is more fool him.

 

Re the charges, these are all the, what I would losely term taxes, that tradespeople pay to the government. Of any bill you get from an artisan, you can say that about half of this goes to the government one way or another. Some of the things you have mentioned like social security charges, but there are many other things here too.

[Val_2]

Yes you would have to pay URSSAF, the CPAM charges, pension and invalidité as well as ASSEDIC and probably the building trades one PROBTP. There is about five in all for a casual employer to pay and then you get into the problems of needing an accountant to sort out the paperwork,it is so very complicated that we have an employed bookeeper as well as an accountant to do all the mathematics and forms. If this man is insisting on cash only then you know he is on the black as if you employ him you would have to pay by cheque or direct into his bank as cash is a problem in itself when the paperwork comes round and you must account for where the payment has gone to. Don't touch him is my advice and no, you do not have to pay him 30€ per hour as he is not a registered skilled artisan and so the SMIC would be all you have to pay out.

[Bobc]

"Can anyone tell me what the real legal situation is please ?"

As the previous replies have pointed out, to employ someone on this basis is illegal.

If you need to employ artisans for the work that you cannot do yourself then you must be prepared to pay the going rate. Of the amount that they will invoice you for, a large percentage goes directly in charges.

Unfortunately a lot of buyers of property in France seem happy to employ unregistered workers to carry out their renovation work, pay in cash, pay in sterling, etc, etc.

In our small area of 47 we have 'artisans' registered as gardeners carrying out major building work (without being registered for TVA) and others completely unregistered for anything carrying out various building work, central heating installations, etc.

Regards,

Bob Clarke
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/grindoux

 

[Moulin]

Following this thread brings up an interesting question.

A friend of mine has a small civil engineering business and has bought a property in northern France through the business as a business asset. When work is slack he regularly takes some of his employees over for a week or so to work on the property rather than lay them off. I wonder how he stands under French Law as I can guarantee he has never given this a thought and would he horrified if he discovered he was doing something illegal!

[Pucette<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>Pucette<FONT><P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">"Qui ne connaît pas la campagne lhiver, ne connaît pas la campagne et ne connaît pas]

There is no legitimate casual labour in France.

The people organising and paying for the works are legally responsible for ensuring that they are using a legitimate artisan. Technically even friends' unpaid-for help is illegitimate.

Chèques d'emploi cannot be used for building works.

French people do what Moulin's friend is doing; my understanding is that it is not legitimate but I'm not certain.

[ChrisnJules]

Thanks everyone, I'm getting a pretty clear picture here - unfortunately at the detriment of my bank balance

So, let me sum up:

1) No casual labour as such, people have to be properly employed or not at all. 2) I could even be in trouble because my brother and son have been helping me, despite the fact that this has been unpaid. 3) Can't employ british based builders unless they have previously been authorised to work in France. 4)Artisans and fully accredited builders cost (for obvious reasons), but the only alternative choice you have is DIY. 5) If you do pay someone via the back door, anyone associated with the 'project' could be implicated and fall foul of the law. 7) Can't use Cheques d'emploi  6) And finally (I suspect) almost everyone does it in some small way or another, including the French, but get caught slipping someone a few tenners for slapping some plaster on the walls and you may as well take your place in the queue for Madam Guillotine.

All jokes apart, Julie and I are grateful for the advice and guidance.

[Teamedup]

We would have got little done if we hadn't had friends and family volunteer their help. Which we have reciprocated. Everyone does that, it is OK, although legal, well, probably not quite.

[Pucette<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>Pucette<FONT><P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">"Qui ne connaît pas la campagne lhiver, ne connaît pas la campagne et ne connaît pas]

Help from family members is perfectly legal and legitimate. Direct family at least - siblings & direct ascendants & descendants. No idea about cousins and more distant relatives!

Slipped tenners are irrelevant if someone in a high place gets stroppy; if a service has been rendered it is assumed that it was paid for in some way.

[Hereford]

This thread started and continued as regards to building work.  Do all the various rules and regs apply to gardening too please?

We are not happy that the chap who cuts our grass occasionally wants cash only......so we think we can guess what the answer is.

H.

[Iceni]

Hi H

I am pretty sure it relates to all types of work. At least if they are registered 'correctly' you have some come back if things go wrong. There was also a very scary thread some time ago about a couple who were cleaned out financially because their noir gardener cut his finger off, no insurance so they were liable.

[Teamedup]

Maybe Cheque Emploi cover gardeners? And then all would be legal, although I am sure more expensive for you.

[SaligoBay]

Yes, don't forget the insurance aspect, it's just as scary (if not more so) than getting caught out by the law.   You have to be insured for walking out of your front door in France, schoolchildren have school insurance etc etc etc, it's a serious issue.

Iceni's right, it's not worth the risk of uninsured injuries on your property.  Your French dream will be finished before you can say "c'est quoi, un huissier?"

OTOH, many people get away with it all the time, both British and French.  Is there a smiley for a Gallic shrug?

 

[BJSLIV]

Its also worth bearing in mind that unless the property is a main residence, or it is held for a long time, your Capital Gains Tax liability will increase, as you cannot offset the cost of any work done unless its performed by registered traders.

[Will]

This previous topic might be of interest.

http://forums.livingfrance.com/shwmessage.aspx?forumid=12&messageid=3295#bm33502

If you look towards the end, you will see that there is apparently something like the cheque d'emploi system covering building and such work.

[Teamedup]

I had not quite remembered that properly, I misremembered it was in the cheque emploi scheme, but it is really good that there is something for odd jobs that is reglo.

[BJSLIV]

The problem with the Titre D'Emploi system is that it allows existing companies to take on workers for short term work, it doesn't help for someone just needing a bit of help at home.

[Boiling a frog]

[quote]This previous topic might be of interest. http://forums.livingfrance.com/shwmessage.aspx?forumid=12&messageid=3295#bm33502 If you look towards the end, you will see that there is apparently so...[/quote]

Le chèque emploi service permet de rémunérer de façon simplifiée une personne occupant :
>un emploi à domicile
>ouvrant droit aux réduction d’impôts

Il peut donc être utilisé pour les emplois tels que les tâches ménagères ou familiales exécutées au domicile :
>ménage
>aide à domicile
>garde malade
>garde d’enfants
>aide aux personnes âgées…
>soutien scolaire
>jardinage
et plus généralement les activités relevant de la convention collective des employés de maison

 

Appears it only covers domestic type work and gardening

[Russethouse]

My friend used this organisation to find someone to do gardening work.

Objectif Emploi Solidarite

40 rue Concarneau

29000 Quimper

02 98 53 17 33

I appreciate this might be hundreds of miles from you but maybe they know of something similar in your area....if they are part of a network?

Bit of a long shot - but you never know.......

[Hereford]

How does cheque d'emploi work please? Who do we get in touch with to set this up, or is it the person who wants the job.

With this info we will tackle our "cash" gardener. If we cannot sort something out he will be out of a job next summer.

many thanks

H.

[Boiling a frog]

A very rough translation

o you recruit un(e) employé(e) of house? Instead of avoiding the steps while paying it to the black, know that a simple tool exists to remunerate it legally:  the check use service. 
 
The check use service dispenses l.employeur of the administrative formalities (declaration to l.Urssaf, registration of the salaried employee to the social Security), of the calculation of the overheads and the monthly bulletins of wage.

But attention:  s.il benefits from l.Aged for the care of his/her/its children, he cannot use the check use service and must do the described above usual formalities therefore.

Ask for the checkbook

L.employeur must ask free for this checkbook in his/her/its bank. The file includes a d.adhésion demand with authorization of withdrawal of the social contributions and a model of work contract.

The check use service serves of work contract for an occasional work of less than eight hours per week or four consecutive weeks per year. In all others cases, the contract is obligatory. The Fepem elaborated a model simplified easy to fill.

A simple procedure

The checkbook includes twenty formulas of check come with d.enveloppes preprinted. Every check s.accompagne d.un social shutter, that contains all information administrative d.ordre. Every time l.employeur pays its salaried employee, he hands him a check of the amount of the net income increased of 10% for the paid holidays.

In the fifteen days, he/it sends the shutter social correspondent to l.Urssaf of Saint-Étienne that manages the device. L.employeur must write down the d.heures number of work there done, the clean amount of l.heure of work, the total paid to the salaried employee. He/it must also indicate if the salary is calculated on an inclusive or real basis. The contributions are appropriated automatically on the banking account of l.employeur.

In the ten days following the receipt of the social shutter, l.Urssaf sends to the salaried employee an attestation of salary that is worth bulletin of salary.

Article actualized February 15, 2004