Heating a barn

[Iceni]

I know that this has been done to death but I have a couple of questions.

The barn floor is old and although we are putting new floorboards down after removing the layer of concrete which is straight onto old boards, the beams and rafters are not strong enough to lay underfloor heating via a normal system of pipes/insulation and concrete. The area is about 40 foot x 20 foot and 20+ foot high. There is a sous-sol beneath which has limited headroom

1 Has anyone tried to heat a space like this with radiators and a large log burner for immediate heat source (and to keep the place warm when it is not that cold)? We would use an oil fired boiler.

2 If we went for underfloor heating that is fitted between the joists and sits under a wooden floor, would the floor warp. We can lay laminate flooring but having had that twice in the past I know that 'scratches are forever' and cannot be sanded out and this is a huge area of floor to watch get slowly scratched off. Getting seasoned floorboards is not as easy as it sounds.

Ah the joys of renovation. Thanks in advance - Di not John, hence imperial measurements and not very technical questions, he is above staining beams - bless.

 

[zeb]

Hi Di - contact me this time next year and I'll let you know the answer to your first question!!

Our barn/salon is about the same size/height as yours but has a mezzanine at one end. We now have the concrete floor with pipework underneath (and cats sitting in line on top), radiators (one either end) and huge woodburner but roof space isn't insulated yet and floor not tiled so not quite habitable. Hope to finish it in the spring 'cos I thought that with it's huge bespoke (gosh that sounds posh) windows, it will make a fantastic room for the summer - furnishings will be minimal (no money) just a piano and a huge sofa. If it's chilly or costs a fortune to heat during the winter we can shut it off and live in the kitchen/sitting room (40sq mts) as we do now.

On a serious note, go for underfloor heating if at all possible. Radiators ain't pretty and they take up space, and u.h. I believe, is much more efficient. Due to technical reasons we couldn't go down that route. The earth floor could only be dug out to a certain depth for concreting as there are no foundations and also, we have a huge beam/lintel on one wall where the access is to the utility room and bathroom (was another smaller barn). We weren't able to have the floor any higher there - as it is folks any taller than me have to duck!

Buy new boarding (oak or chesnut) or go for parquet which is veneered (not laminated) so you can sand it later on if needs be.

Sorry, will leave your technical questions to the experts.

Good luck.......helen

[Poolguy]

Hello Di

Sounds like a big job and one to the right way once, instead of in bits or just enough.

I suggest the following:

I am presuming that this floor is on the ground floor and not a mezzanine. In which case if you want to go with underfloor heating, then take out ALL the timber out and begin with a new slab containing steel and the pipework necessary for hot water. If you then want timber boards on top put down 50x50mm battens and infill with screed. Boards MUST be a substantial hardwood.. (chestnut is too soft) and must be between 6-9% moisture content to avoid distortion. Naturally, I would suggest Tung oil final polish as you know my particular persuasion for natural products as Lacquers and varnishes cause cancer.

I don't like semi sold boards or veneers for the reasons you described and they are not a final solution but a problem delayed for a later generation to solve. Solid timber is not that much more expensive and should last for Hundreds of years if you treat it well. Lastly those with an eye for quality will be able to tell the difference.

Heating the space is no problem. I still suggest a wood pellet burner either as a space heater (if you don't go underfloor) or as a boiler unit(if you do). The fuel cost of oil will double in the next 3 years and those with investment in oil systems will hurt bad. Wood fuel will only ever get cheaper as it becomes more popular and its no more trouble to use that oil or gas. One addition you will need though is a fan (I would suggest two) in the ceiling to force the warm air down otherwise you will always feel cold even though you pump masses of energy into the room.

I can help you with any of this material or equipment or more information if you want to send me a PM.

Andrew

[Iceni]

Hi Hendo

Unfortunately we cannot dig out the floor as the floor is actually the first floor - there is a sous-sol beneath it the whole length. The barn is built into the hill - so the south side has three floors the sous-sol opening out to the road, whilst the north side is only two stories high, the ss being in the ground. The other problem we have is that the newer (it is all relative) part of the barn follows the road - so the east end of the barn is a very interesting shape. We have had everything checked and the beams that hold the floor up are not able to take any more weight and we may even have tostrengthenn them just to hold up the floor so it does not behave like a trampoline.

We are putting new wooden floorboards down as we go along and using the old ones as firewood. There is a mezzanine (the third storey) but this is only for 2/3rds of the length. If this had been a ground floor we would not have had a problem.

Any suggestions on how we deal with this please . We are also looking at wood pellets, nothing is set in stone yet thank goodness.

Thanks

[Iceni]

[quote]Hi Di - contact me this time next year and I'll let you know the answer to your first question!! Our barn/salon is about the same size/height as yours but has a mezzanine at one end. We now have the...[/quote]

Hi Helen

Well it seems great minds think alike. We also have a 40 sq m living room which can be closed off and not only has a kitchen but has a shower room and loo. We are sleeping in here at the moment until the bedrooms are finished on the mezzanine then we will move upstairs to sleep. How big are your windws - ours are 12+ feet high and almost the same width. Did you have the windows made and are they wood - the cost of these plus shutters is begining to worry us a bit.

We cannot dig the floor out as there is just the floor, beams and 2 metres of clear air beneath. We do not want to put concrete beams into the floor as friends have done as we don't want to change the barn that much.

Ho hum, renovation is such good fun, luckily I am able to sit here and let 'them' get on with it all.

[Poolguy]

OK Di

I think I understand now, apologies for my false presumption.

If the Beams are timber and they are not up to job you have two options; remove them and replace with steel universal beams then lay ply shuttering and pour a slab as before; or if you want the retain then old look you can put additional new beams in between the old to reduce the bearing load, then put down ply then foil to hold the heating coil and battens and proceed as laying a floor. Under to ply you will insulate like mad and cover with timber sarking. Both should work but the second will look better if you want to retain any authentic look.The secret to the later floor is the stiffness of the ply (9).

 

What are the old boards made of..? shame to have them in the fire. Even old boards have new life after a planner has met them.

Hope its helpful

Andrew

 

 

 

[Iceni]

[quote]OK Di I think I understand now, apologies for my false presumption. If the Beams are timber and they are not up to job you have two options; remove them and replace with steel universal beams then l...[/quote]

This was a real working barn and the floorboards are made of whatever they could get their hands on. They are not wonderful being full of large nails, holes from various flying and crawling wood insects and all in all not really good for anything. Our carpenter would have talked us into keeping them (or he would have taken them) if they were any good.

We are looking at the underfloor heating but also at any other options.

Thanks

[zeb]

Hi Di - windows all double glazed wooden - total cost for  one set of double port fenetre 7 ft high (four doors), one single port fenetre (2 doors), and one window (can't remember size) plus shutters - around 5k euros. We could have got a better quote if we had shopped around more. Try local menusier, lapyere etc. Guy down the road has just had a wonderful window installed in place of barn doors and got friend to make it for 500 euros. I am so jealous..........helen

 

[Iceni]

Hi Helen

We normally get our windows from Lapyere but this would be so expensive for this door that we are looking at other options. One neighbour had a very nice arched barn doorway glazed and what we thought was wood is in fact brown aluminium and is made by a factory 2 km away - Sobal. Not really the road we want to go down but our carpenter does not want to touch it simply because of the size, there is a local firm who do this kind of work but are known as very very expensive so... The time is coming when we have to decide what is cost effective, not just for heating but for other parts of the build. We are trying to be in keeping with the building and the surroundings. We have made our main external and internal doors + shutter and will continue to do so - luckily the doors are not glazed.

Oh I wish I had deep pockets and unlimited funds

[Iceni]

OK, we looked at some quick figures with our carpenter last night and have to say that sometimes what you want is simply not achievable or cost effective.

For underfloor heating we can:

1   double the rafters - for 60 x 22 feet this is one heck of a lot of wood and the payback would be a very long time - probably not affordable for us.

2   Run more posts lengthways and put another mid rafter each side (sorry I don't know the technical term - probably something like 'mid beam'). This will make the 60 x 22 sous-sol unusable for storage of car, fuel for heating etc so this is not an option as we have no other outbuildings.

The reason we know the place is overspanned for any further weight is that an experienced architect told us - BUT you can do a really good trampoline act on the bit that has been concreted (not by us I might add) so it is obvious.

This leaves us with normal rad heating. This has to be heating that we can afford to not only put in but to run. There is no point in putting in a system that we cannot afford to run as and when we get older and very soon have to live on a fixed income. One of our elderly neighbours has a house which she does not live in, she lives in a flat in a nearby town - we were told that her LPG heating was costing up to 2K€ a year and the place is smaller than ours.

Our wood burner is terrific, so we are going to have a large woodburner in the barn - we know that wood is not cheap in our area but we also know that it is efficient.

So we are left with roughly the same system that Helen has put in - Helen, lets hope yours works for both our sakes . If it gets too cold in the winter, we will just move into the small lounge/kitchen as many of our French friends do.