UK Hot water cylinder

[Choochoo]

Hi everyone

We have a wood burning Rayburn with back boiler. To make use of the boiler for hot water I need to install a UK type indirect hot water cylinder,this is no problem except I have limited room above it for the cold supply tank. Because of this I was thinking of taking the normal cold water supply which is at 2.5 bar into the inlet but using a stopcock in the line to reduce the pressure. Does anyone know the safe working pressure of one of these cylinders, obviously I would like it as high as possible to give a good pressure at the shower.In the Summer when the Rayburn is not in use we will use the Chauffe eau we have in use at present.

Thanks to all

 

John & Sue (50)

[Dave&Olive]

you really need to rethink this project.

1 We have a wood burning Rayburn with back boiler. To make use of the boiler for hot water I need to install a UK type indirect hot water cylinder

why!!!! when you can buy a better French one

2 this is no problem except I have limited room above it for the cold supply tank. Because of this I was thinking of taking the normal

why !!!! when you can fit an expansion tank so no need for cold water tank ...then it will not freeze and flood the house out in the winter

3 Does anyone know the safe working pressure of one of these cylinders, obviously I would like it as high as possible to give a good pressure at the shower.In the Summer when the Rayburn is not in use we will use the Chauffe eau we have in use at present.

why !! less than the French one

where are you going to put the top up tank . who is going to buy your property with uk plumbing , it will cost you more in uk to french adaptors to fit the system.

the sealed heating system is far better than a vented one rethink and think French

     Dave

[Dick Smith]

Why not stick with the chauffe eau? You would get a number of year's electricity costs for the cost of the work you are planning, surely?

[Quillan]

A stop cock does not reduce the pressure just the flow rate. When the taps are turned off the pressure will rise to the same each side of the stop cock.

[Dick Smith]

But you could put a pressure reduction valve in-line.

[Mikey]

Dave and Olive, what French make is better and cheaper than a Rayburn, I've never seen any.

I'd love to get a French oil fired range that does central heating for 25 rads and hotwater.

 

Please enlighten me

 

mike

[Dave&Olive]

your rayburn will be ok it`s the rest of it you want to re-think

dave

[Choochoo]

Hi Dave & Olive

Thanks for the replies. I already have the cylinder left over from a previous life so would like to use it. As the Rayburn is burning anyway, might as well use it to heat water saving electricity costs,at least in the winter. As I said I have room above it for a small top up tank.What is the expansion tank you referred to ? and in Dicks reply I have never seen a pressure valve as you suggest,any pointers to what it is and where I obtain it.? I thought I had solved the problem of lack of a supply tank but obviously there are problems to be overcome.      Any more suggestions would be welcome.

I see you are flying the Welsh flag,I lived in Wales for 5 years in the seventies in a place called Pumsaint, just outside of Lampeter.

Thanks again to all

 

John & Sue (50) 

[Dave&Olive]

well the basics are on this site scroll down to sealed systems, but beware if they are not fitted correctly you could end up with a large vent in the roof     

               dave

good job its got an edit button the site

 http://www.gasman.fsbusiness.co.uk/system_basics.htm

[Dick Smith]

John and Sue - the pressure reduction valve was fitted by our builder after we had mains water installed - we were getting leaks from the chauffe eau (which he said is pretty common as the mains are such a high pressure). I think he just got it from a local builders' merchant, it's fitted in-line in the water pipe before the stop cock. I'll try to find out the details, and what it's called in French (if no-one else on the forum can tell us!).

[Dave&Olive]

Yes Dick with my limited French and beit somthing that I might need kept the posting safe ......

     if cleaning or changing the groupe de securite does not solve the problem, then the constant dripping is probably caused by high mains water pressure. To cure this you need to fit a reducteur de pression (20/30 euros) on your mains supply, reducing your water pressure to 3 bar.  

                dave

[Punch]

It's called a "reducteur de pression" and goes in line on the cold water supply. There are two types; One is pre-regulated and the other is pre-set usually to about 2 bars. You can also buy a manometre which is a dial pressure gauge to monitor the pressure; The manometre can often be screwed into the side of a the pressure valve or attached to the existing pipework with a suitable joint/fitting.

 

Paul

[Michael]

[quote]Hi everyone We have a wood burning Rayburn with back boiler. To make use of the boiler for hot water I need to install a UK type indirect hot water cylinder,this is no problem except I have limited r...[/quote]

choochoo.If you are going domn this path  The cly normally used on a rayburn is 1050X460mm grade 3  indirect, min.The working head pressure will be on the label fixed to the cly.You do not use vented clys on pressure systems they are not designed for it.On rayburn coal/wood boilers you do not plumb it for pressurised systems it must be open vented.ie.feed and expansion tank, standard practise install heat leak rad.The minimum height from the base of the mains water tank to the top of the shower rose is 1 metre giving you 1psi for the shower to work with any decent spray etc.Summing up,its bad and dangerous practise to install any multi fuel boiler/coal wood,on a pressure system. Some people do ,with expansion vessels on the primarys and safety valves piped to outside which is still incorrect. With no heat control something could be put in orbit?.Stop cocks do not reduce pressure.pressure reduceing sets do.Happy days.

[Choochoo]

Hi Michael

Thanks for your advice. I am installing a normal vented system with heat leak radiator and high limit thermostat on the boiler piping. All I am trying to do that is extra to this is to get around the problem of not having a loft space big enough to put a large water tank in. If I could supply the Cylinder with water from our main supply (which comes from one of those big metal tanks fed by a well pump) which is normally at about 2 to 2.5 bar , reduce this pressure somehow to the normal working pressure inside the cylinder in a "normal" situation,then I have solved my problem. Unfortunately I cant find out (a) how to reduce the incoming pressure (b) what the final working pressure should be.

Any ideas

Thanks

 

John

[Michael]

[quote]Hi Michael Thanks for your advice. I am installing a normal vented system with heat leak radiator and high limit thermostat on the boiler piping. All I am trying to do that is extra to this is to get...[/quote]

choochoo . What difference does a high limit stat have on the boiler pipeing if you have no control on a multi fuel boiler.It is not going to shut down the fire.The cly is not designed for a pressure system even on the hot water/domestic side.I cannot tell you how to do anything illegal ,but on the side of the cly it will show the working  head pressure, turn that into psi by every 3ft in height its approx 1psi that will tell you approx the safety limit of the cly.Other people have told you that it needs a pressure reducing set on the rising main,most pressure systems work at below 3 bar .If you insist on installing this dodgy system make sure that a very large expansion vessel is put on the the hot flow outlet near the cly with a safety valve piped to outside.Myself i would not put a kettle on the stove and and block off the lid and spout.?happy days.and hopefully not in orbit.

[Dave&Olive]

[quote]Hi everyone We have a wood burning Rayburn with back boiler. To make use of the boiler for hot water I need to install a UK type indirect hot water cylinder,this is no problem except I have limited r...[/quote]

o.k. lets go back to the original question :- you say you have no room above for a cold water tank but have you room for a hot tank along side your rayburn ? if yes you could then use the room above for the cold water tank and top up tank .

 Just trying to help

         Dave

[Plato comes homePlato]

Hi

Dave and Olive gave some good advice but here is a lot of smoke and mirrors here.......lets get some reality. A hot water service consists of a supply of water and electricity or some enrgy device,, a reservoir for the heated water, a thermostat to LIMIT temperature and a relief valve to stop tank pressure build up past a safe amount.

On the inlet side water pressure limiting can be needed for several reasons, and this is done by a simple pressure bypass valve assembly. A constant pressure (+/-) reaches the tank assembly.

Slow combustion stoves work usually from gravity fed tanks. Raising this pressure for example by a pump  leads to blowing joints apart behind the stove assembly.

The cost of transporting a system from UK to France is really quite uneconomical; better to use locals to provide the properly working system.

The problem being that British just cannot get a hold of the fact that, pigheadedness and apparent idiocy aside...the French are actually intelligent and have systems which suit their infrastructure. Your law comes from the Norman invasion as does the Magna Carta..1066 was quite conclusive so just accept you lost the war and the BETTER side won it and start to wake up...

Now...if you write to me personally on aussiefrog!@hotmail.com and give me a clear picure of your locality and services and situation I think I can help you..ok??

And Dick Smith. "chauffe eau"  is NOT French or any part stye or degree of French...you MUST use the participles if you want to learn French rather than have them studying your personal pattoir...the expression is ..Chauffage de l'eau!!..ok!!... "de l'." apart from the rest ...it is critical!!  "chauffe"  sounds like........NOTHINg to the French whose language you ought to hve a grasp of by now.......ca va?

Cheers

[Plato comes homePlato]

Since I wrote aIread other replies. Forget going upwards..an exploding water tank under pressure will likely take out your neighbourhood block anywhere but in 1 metre thick walled France!! Its a bomb!!

All this business has NOTHING to do with a slow combustion coil fed hot water service as you apear to be trying to bring across (fair thought!!) Such systems are unlikely to explode as the coil connections will have blown off long before anything ever gets going in teh hot water tank ....because you are looking for pressure in the first instance and quantum in the second.... Presure in such systems requires a large tank to hold Hot water which is then pumped to a showerhead.

The hot water needs replenishmment or you end up pumping air.It a sort of "give this take that die of frustration" so please write to me re your actual situation and I'll do what I can to give you best advice,,,ok...cheers

[Choochoo]

[quote]o.k. lets go back to the original question :- you say you have no room above for a cold water tank but have you room for a hot tank along side your rayburn ? if yes you could then use the room above f...[/quote]

Hi Dave

Thanks for your input. Sorry but the cylinder goes above the Rayburn on the first floor to give a proper working head. I have purchased a reducteur de pression  which can go down as low as .5bar so I am going to give it a go. I feel that a normal system, such as I had in my UK house, a 50 gallon tank sited 8 feet above the cylinder must surely exert quite a pressure.

Wish me luck.

John

[Choochoo]

[quote]choochoo . What difference does a high limit stat have on the boiler pipeing if you have no control on a multi fuel boiler.It is not going to shut down the fire.The cly is not designed for a pressure ...[/quote]

Hi Michael

The high limit thermostat monitors the outgoing water temperature from the Rayburn. Should this rise above 80c it automatically turns on the CH circulation pump,thereby ensuring the water never boils and things get nasty.

Contrary to what our antipodean friend thinks I have a lot of experience of Rayburn systems for CH and HW. I am also experienced in electrical installation (UK) and have an Electronics qualification, being a service engineer in one of my previous lives.

Best wishes to all

 

John

[Michael]

[quote]Hi Michael The high limit thermostat monitors the outgoing water temperature from the Rayburn. Should this rise above 80c it automatically turns on the CH circulation pump,thereby ensuring the water ...[/quote]

Choo now you have said the high limit stat is bringing the pump in, it do not sound so bad.Although you know what i mean by a coal/wood boiler blasting away.Have you thought about a stuart turner positive head pump for your main storage tank with check valve.. between tank and cly .Put tank on stand next to cly.could solve your head pressure with a bit of jiggling.happy days..

[Dave&Olive]

Hi QUOTE

Hi Dave

Thanks for your input. Sorry but the cylinder goes above the Rayburn on the first floor to give a proper working head. I have purchased a reducteur de pression  which can go down as low as .5bar so I am going to give it a go. I feel that a normal system, such as I had in my UK house, a 50 gallon tank sited 8 feet above the cylinder must surely exert quite a pressure.

Wish me luck.

John

         Think one of us is getting confused here .The water preasure in the hot water tank will come from the cold tank so it does not matter where you place the hot tank down stairs aslong as the bottom of the hot tank is above the top of the boiler

                 yes Dave

 

[Pantouflard]

And Dick Smith. "chauffe eau"  is NOT French or any part stye or degree of French...you MUST use the participles if you want to learn French rather than have them studying your personal pattoir...the expression is ..Chauffage de l'eau!!..ok!!... "de l'." apart from the rest ...it is critical!!  "chauffe"  sounds like........NOTHINg to the French whose language you ought to hve a grasp of by now.......ca va?

 

Thanks for that Plato.  I'll let them know next time I'm in EdF, Gaz de France, - - - -

[Dick Smith]

Cheers, Pantouflard, I hadn't seen that bit of gob-on-a-stick nastiness.

What is the proper French term for 'tosser'?

[Tresco]

How stange, I just happened to be looking that very word up, and it's connard, generally.

Emphatically, or accurately, Branleur/euse. Hope this helps.

tresco