Getting around planning permission?!

[mimi]

I have bought a house with a large wooden barn (100m2). The barn is on the flood plain and we are told that we are unable to change the barn into living accommodation. We would like to rent out the house in the Summer months, but we would like to use the barn for our own accommodation. Obviously we would like to do so legally!! The barn does need to be renovated - the roof needs to be re-tiled and the wood cladding needs to be replaced. We would also like to put in electricity, water and drainage. We have thought about asking permission under the pretext of using the space as an artist's studio and then at a later date adding simple accommodation. Would this be legal or is there another way of using the barn as a temporary Summer residence? We have also thought about putting a 'non-permanent' structure inside the barn, but again we don't know if this would be legal. Any help or advice you could give would be very gratefully received.

[Nick Trollope]

Any idea why it cannot be converted, or replaced? Is it because of the flood plain? There are rules (such as being within 20M of current agricultural buildings). Who told you?

[mimi]

Thanks for your response. We have spoken to both the estate agent who sold us the property and to the mairie. Both of whom told us that it would be impossible to get planning on the barn as it is situated on the flood plain. The annoying thing for us is that there are other houses located nearer to the river than ours and which are definitely on the flood plain. Apparently the river flooded about 10 years ago and the legislation was brought in then. Obviously this rule only applies to new developments. It is definitely on the 'zone rouge' as we have seen the land registry map. Interestingly we are able to build a swimming pool on the 'zone rouge', which is why we're thinking about applying for permission to renovate and turn into a 'studio'. Any ideas?

[Deimos]

No experience of you particular problem, but around me they will

not allow new developments on flood plain either.

However, have you tried discussing the possibility of developing

something on the 1^st floor only (i.e. apartments type of thing, outside

steps up to 1^st floor, leaving the ground level as garage, barns, etc.)

Just a thought

Ian

[Dick Smith]

Ian might have an answer, but you definitely need to discuss this at the mairie at least - if you 'get round' (ie ignore)planning permission the authorities are likely to bite back, and it can be pretty hard if permission has been refused and you have gone ahead anyway. You only have to have one person, or even the postie, report you and you are in trouble.

[Helen888]

Hi Mimi

I just wondered, does the barn have a CU? Does anyone know if the flood plain factor would crop up at CU stage or only once a permit de construire was filed for?       

 

[Mike]

Hi,

        its just a thought. Not knowing how big your barn is (I'm sorry I can't visualise 100m2), but usually they have  reasonable access........large double barn doors. Have you thought, if it just for yourselves for the summer; of a reasonable sized caravan wheeled into the barn and connected up to the usual facilities.

As I said, just a thought as some of these caravans nowadays are very well appointed. 

[Opalienne]

Our neighbours have converted their garage into a house for their son but with permission only for a photographer's studio on the first foor.   Everyone knows about it and there has been much discussion about its legality.   I don't think it will last long - denunciation is a very popular pastime in France and quite acceptable behaviour.  It's strange for those of us who believe that people who grass are not our friends, but that's how it is.  So, I would be very careful.

[JH78]

Hi (first time post, please excuse any errors!)

Last year we helped my parents make an application for 'demande de travaux/changement de facade' (as opposed to full planning permission) asking to add a  window or two to an existing garage under the house (idea being to convert garage into a  flat). 

Locals, agents etc. said that there in the laid-back South of France/Provence, nobody in their right mind would even bother to ask for permission! Being law-abiding Brits (?) and so as to be at least semi-legal (with regards the external changes) we put in the required drawings, plans etc. with accompanying blurb (prepared by a French person) saying the windows would provide extra light for a 'studio' (woodwork etc.) and that indeed it would improve the external appearance of the place (which was very true).

Result: Refusal for demande de travaux as it was obvious to them that there would be a 'change of use' and its back to the drawing board to apply for full permission (with the future tax consequences..).

In your case you also have the 'flood plain' issue, and frankly given the terrible flooding tragedies of recent years, it is understandable that they're 'cracking down' (same in the South with fire issues).  Would agree with the idea of 'camping out' in a caravan of some sort  if you really have to rent out your home, or  maybe extend your main house (hopefully not on flood plain) to provide an annexe .

Don't want to sound negative, but I wouldn't advise going ahead with anything without permission - would be a shame to have the whole thing demolished (at your expense). 

I don't think that neighbours 'grassing' etc. is a 'French' issue as the previous poster implied.  Can you imagine redeveloping a big barn in the UK without Planning Permission?!!

Hope you find a suitable compromise/solution.

[painterman]

I know that this posting was a while ago, but do you happen to know if the 20M agricultural building rule applies to straw and hay storage only in an open hangar style barn, or is it for agricultural buildings with chickens or sheep. We were told the ruling was 50metres for habitation away from cows which is sensible due to TB. ...but 20m away as a 'blanket' ruling might be a problem for the CU we are trying to get on a farmhouse we are trying to buy.  I'd be very grateful of a reply even this is now March.

Painterman

[Dick Smith]

Just to reinforce what JH78 (come on! give us a name!) wrote. We were told by the maire that putting in a window was no problem. Our builder insisted on getting permission, and we had all sorts of trouble with the regional office. Sorted in the end, but I hate to think what they would have done to us if we had taken the maire's advice and someone had objected later.