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how much to pay prior to work starting?


toni

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We are about to get some work done on our house and are wondering what is the standard proceedure for payment for work agreed-that is how much does the builder/artisan usually insist on prior to commencing work with regard to (a) materials and (b) labour?
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We have had this one before and it seems my approach is not normal. Unless there is a very large sum involved for materials, I never ask for any money up front. Usually my projects last for many months and I like to get some payment every couple of months or so as the work progresses. It seems that many other artisans have a different approach. I also can't imagine why you should part with money without having had something for it, most established artisans have an account with suppliers, payment 28 days from the end of the month goods purchased.

As 99% of my work comes from recommendations, I trust the client and I like to think that they trust me

Chris.

.

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We had a major re-roofing job - 300sq m plus 5 new lucarnes and 1 small velux. I paid nothing up front and paid half when the work was 2/3 complete (with all materials on site) and the rest after completion. The roofer did not ask for any up front payment and seemed embarrassed about asking for the stage payment.

Regards

Alan.

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We were asked for and paid 30% of the labour cost up-front and opened an a/c for materials to be drawn at the local builders merchant. Our architecte advised that this was normal & OK.

However .............. we had the added advantage that our (bulky) neighbour, who had recommended the builder, said that he would "Cassez ses jambes" if there was a problem of any sort! It sort-of provided peace of mind.

By the way, job 95% complete and builder reluctant to take any more money until everything complete to his entire satisfaction, despite delays not of his making. Happily, not always horror stories! 

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Similar to above replies, we had artisans on site for several months and we paid in stages after the work had been inspected by the site manager.  My only advice would be to make sure you asked your artisans that very question prior to signing any devis - that way everyone knows whats going to happen and there is no nasty surprises.
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C/H system - 75% materials - was invoiced in full when job complete. Thanks to delivery problems this was spread over more than 2 months.

Big window, 4m x 3m, ish (being manufactured somewhere and due in January rescheduled to end March) + hand made oak staircase (installation in progress) - nothing paid so far.

Work done by mason, holes for windows, repointing etc payment on completion but that's almost 100% labour.

Stones to go around new openings - invoiced when mason collected.

All of the above done by local firms.

Kitchen from a franchise based 60k away - around 30% down, 60% on delivery, balance on satisfactory fitting (commenced the day after delivery but still unfinished, incorrect and missing bits).

As a sweeping generalisation, invoicing is treated with the same lack of urgency as preparing a devis and starting the job but payment is then expected witn 10/15 days at most. We have tried to use locals where we can and do not want to gain a reputation as slow payers. Getting a genuine start date with more than a day's notice is also unusual - more likely to be a knock on the door at 08.15 - we are here !!

John

not

 

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[quote user="toni"]We are about to get some work done on our house and are wondering what is the standard proceedure for payment for work agreed-that is how much does the builder/artisan usually insist on prior to commencing work with regard to (a) materials and (b) labour?[/quote]

This came up a while ago (a few months I think) so it might be worth going through the posts in this section;. I wouldn't recommend the search faciltiy.  I don't think there is a standard procedure as you have probably gathered already.  Personally I would not pay in advance unless I had ordered some special high value item.  We have only had a couple of expensive jobs done by tradesmen and both times they did not ask for money in advance but were very prompt in giving me the final invoice (and I paid it very promptly).  Both had expensive materials to buy in advance but, don't forget, they will run an account at their suppliers, so won't be handing cash over the counter in advance themselves. Progress payments are OK but make sure that you have got, roughly, what you paid for.

Liz

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We have used our architect to Project Manage and he produced work schedules for the different trades which were quoted line by line by the local artisans. We developed a payment plan with him and ended up paying as work was completed or expensive materials were on site. 

The architect fees have been paid on competions also.

Good Luck

 

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[quote user="Iceni"]

Big window, 4m x 3m, ish (being manufactured somewhere and due in January rescheduled to end March) + hand made oak staircase (installation in progress) - nothing paid so far.

[/quote]

Is your big window wood?   If so, would you mind telling me how much you are paying for it?   We have been quoted nearly €3k to replace a window - the menuisier told us it would take a week to make by hand so I guess that may not be too unreasonable, but it sounds a lot, all the same.   Many thanks

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Hi

Have been in this business for many years, and the answer is quite simple, if you don't trust your builder you should'nt be considering using him at all.

It is more than reasonable to ask for upfront payment, on 100k project I would ask 25k min upfront and further payments on a monthly basis. Small projects by agreement.  

If your artisan says he doesnt need any upfront payment, he is either grossly overcharging for his work, and able to finance everyones projects himself or a short step from disaster. Materials and wages start on day one, and EDF, France Telecom, Urssaf, Ram, Organic, school fees, won't wait four months for their money :))

Where do people get the idea that you cannot trust artisans but clients you can?

This is a two way street, and there has to be an element of trust involved and if either parties do not at least feel confident of that, then I think its going to be pretty horrible experience for both.

Having said that, for peace of mind, ask for references! not written, ask for people you can speak to, and photo's of work.

It is inevitable that on a large project things will not always run smoothly, the last thing anyone needs is, both worrying about, one running off with the money and the other not paying,

regards

Tim, Saintes.

Complete Bathroom Design and Installations.

 

 

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We replaced our barn doors with a quadruple port fenetre (3 x 2) and that was 3500K four years ago but included the shutters (30% paid up front).

Read your devis carefully! Our French builder charged 850 for fitting the above and then weeks later, we found the same fitting charge had been listed in amongst other works on another devi. This was in the early days when we where very "green" and it took us months to get the money back from him.

Regarding the stage payments, I think it really depends how large the outfit that you use is. A one man band will probably require money up front for materials and stage payments, but a larger company can probably carry the costs for longer.

Always make sure you hold a good percentage back until you are happy with the completed works.
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[quote user="zeb"]We replaced our barn doors with a quadruple port fenetre (3 x 2) and that was 3500K four years ago but included the shutters (30% paid up front). Read your devis carefully! Our French builder charged 850 for fitting the above and then weeks later, we found the same fitting charge had been listed in amongst other works on another devi. .[/quote]

Thanks!  In that case our quote is OK and it does include fitting plus windowsills etc.

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[quote user="Opalienne"][quote user="Iceni"]

Big window, 4m x 3m, ish (being manufactured somewhere and due in January rescheduled to end March) + hand made oak staircase (installation in progress) - nothing paid so far.

[/quote]

Is your big window wood?   If so, would you mind telling me how much you are paying for it?   We have been quoted nearly €3k to replace a window - the menuisier told us it would take a week to make by hand so I guess that may not be too unreasonable, but it sounds a lot, all the same.   Many thanks

[/quote]

Sorry, it is only 3.2m wide x 3m high with a domed top, made of exotic wood, normal sized opening doors in the centre, all double glazed. Total installed cost about €2.300. I have no idea whether A.N. Other would have been cheaper - our choice was a local man, highly recommended and we had seen some of his work.

We tried to get a quote from the local alu man but the best he would say was "FRF 20 - 25.000" and I thought he would have been cheaper !!

John

not

 

 

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Our payment structure very much depends on the type of works quoted for.  On large projects 100K euros + we like to break the project down into seperate "phases".  Each "phase" is 50% payable up front, followed by 25% half way through and 25% upon completion.  Obviously upon completion of the first pahse we move on to the second, and so forth.  We supply our clients with weekly update CD's so they can see how works are progressing if they are not based in France.

Medium projects are 50% up front, followed by the same lots of 25% as above.

Small projects are usually payable upon completion (unless an items needs to be custom ordered, in which case a deposit is needed)

To take a case in point, last year we ordered custom made doors for a client, we didn't ask for a deposit, the client then "changed his mind".  We had to honor the order, and have doors in stock that are unsitable for most buildings and we can't use. 

We explain our payment terms clearly on our website.  We have been in business in France for over 6yrs now, and have always operated under these terms as standard.  Most of our work comes via recommendations and we are very busy, so we must be doing something right!

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Artisans usually ask clients to pay 30% on prior to commencing work. But, in my job (architect), I always advise my clients to pay each month each artisan for the work he has done. The artisans are used to this, because most architects do so. Anyway we work with artisans that we well know and they trust us as much as we trust them.

The law says that the legal up-front payment is 10% for anything (not especially for building).

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"Artisans usually ask clients to pay 30% on prior to commencing work.

But, in my job (architect), I always advise my clients to pay each

month each artisan for the work he has done. The artisans are used to

this, because most architects do so. Anyway we work with artisans that

we well know and they trust us as much as we trust them.

The law says that the legal up-front payment is 10% for anything (not especially for building)."

Which law is this?

When we set up our company we were advised by our state-funded business

advisory service, our accountants and our bank to require 20 or 30% up

front for any work.

For several years we have operated this policy without any problems.

We also require full payment up front for kitchen units and

appliances,  bathroom fittings, tiles, woodburning stoves, custom

timberwork, etc, etc.

Are you saying that this is illegal?

If so, then all the other French artisans that I work with are also

working illegally as they require either 20 or 30% with the signed

devis.

Regards,

Bob Clarke

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/grindoux

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Thanks for all the replies and advice everybody. There seems to be a bewildering number of different arrangements in place! Our job is a preytty small scale project €20,000 approx and while we do feel confident with the builder we will not be there to supervise the work-it's a maison secondaire- so we are a bit anxious about paying most of the money up front.Given all the views above I think we'll be looking for a bit more flexibility on this aspect. Thanks again!!
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