Getting friends over to help

[hamlets_shrink]

I've got a renovation project and plan to bring a succession of friends

over from the UK to help out on a casual basis, I'd be paying them a

little something for their troubles. Sometimes reading these forums

there seems a general concern about attempting anything without all the

rigid regs. about tax and other forms of compliance being adhered to;

which can seem a bit daunting and demoralising [not talking about

Permis De Construire which is in place]. How rigorously do the

authorities check out sites and personel and are there restrictions of

anykind about bringing UK friends over to work on your projects ? i.e.

can one expect to be monitored about cash payments?  It's a fairly

private rural location.

Thanks for your thoughts

.

[tetley]

this is my personal opinion, ......if you have a friend or two coming over to help you with a project that you are working on  for a few days here and there, in my opinion  that is fine....but if it is a big project, and in fact, you are employing your friends from england...then why not use people who are registered over here? meaning local tradesmen (french/english/polish/timbuktooan),  if your friends are qualified in what they do over in uk, I am sure they will be too busy to give you their time (and will be losing money by doing so, unless you are paying them their uk rate?)...and if they are coming to you for a 'holiday' I think they may go home disgruntled at having worked 2 weeks solidly and getting their bed and board, no matter how good a friend they are.  If you  use local tradesmen, you may save yourself time and money in th longrun, because they will be familiar with the local materials, builders merchants and regulations etc, and have the vans and equipment for doing the work, collecting materials, and getting rid of rubbish.  I do not know the legal side of this, but I am guessing that your paid work should legally be declared to the authorities......and the guys who are registered here in france will do that........ and don't be afraid to ask the builders if they put all their money into the moneypot [;-)] . (please don't shoot me down for saying that!!  I am not suggesting working on the black) I am aware that taking on a project is daunting, but once you get started and involved, you will enjoy working with the people in france.

[tetley]

[:D] , only heard rumours...ie; uk voices regularly heard in builders merchants...find themselves being watched, neighbours can be curious and can't miss regular noise and deliveries......and you know they get a little something for tipping off the authorities?, passing gendarmes (?) can check your workers documents at anytime..presumably you will have your board outside telling the world what you are having done. 

Have you tried asking the tradespeople if you can labour for them? tell them you need to keep costs down and would like to do the work yourself...are you talking about knocking out windows and making openings? a registered worker will have a decanelle (a very expensive insurance) that will cover you in case of a wall collapsing etc., what happens if one of your friends hurts themself? are they using E106? they would have just 'fallen down the stairs'?

no matter how experienced your friend may be....stonework is very different to brickwork, same with the electrics and possibly plumbing.  If you go for individual tradespeople here (I think it is difficult to find a 'jack of all trades' as it is very expensive to register to do so, people are more specialist), you can break down your costs, and do alot of work in between ( get your mates over for a weekend) you know what you are paying your maçon, electrician, plumber,  they know their materials and regulations, you can sleep soundly at night! ....the only problem you will have is getting a start date for works!! they are all so busy...but winter is coming....phone around, get your quotes in, have you had any quotes at all?  If you are talking about a big project, I promise you, working with local people as much as you can will save you time and money!   ask around.......ask for ballpark figures on here!

[Russethouse]

Don't forget that if you need to claim, against capital gains for example, only work done by artisans registered in France will be counted.

[hamlets_shrink]

 Thanks Russethouse, yes I understand that, this would be my only

home thus CGT exempt. There were a total of 6 replies a little while

ago, all fairly inoccuos,  just wondering why they've disappeared

?  trying to understand the protocols of this site.

[tetley]

I know I accidentally double posted and asked for it to be deleted (there's your missing 2 posts?)

[Russethouse]

Which I did, no protocol involved !

[Tony F Dordogne]

And would you be covered by insurance if one of them had an accident and had to have medical treatment? Even with friends 'helping', that is not being paid for their work, you would need some sort of insurance for them to be covered.

The bottom line is if you get caught, you'll be starting your life in France off on the wrong foot with just about all the authorities that you may not want to upset in the longer run.

[hamlets_shrink]

Hmmm, there's still 2 more missing, my reply to Tetley and a post from

a guy with a sportscar image on his profile...sorry to see these posts

gone, lost for all time and so intregal to this thread. Anyway, I'm

sure insurance could be arranged, however  I don't want to upset

the authorities, the Marie has been kind to me and the Notaire has been

very cordial, I'd be deeply embarrassed if either of them had to shake

their heads and wag they're finger my way [in that French fashion]. I'm

a tradesman myself and i've worked with [ok I've employed them] a

couple of very useful guys and between us we've always created a

constructive harmony and productivity on the sites, sadly it seems

you're telling me that's not exportable.

[powerdesal]

Sportscar image, sounds like it could be 'cooperlola'

[cooperlola]

[quote user="hamlets_shrink"] Thanks Russethouse, yes I understand that, this would be my only home thus CGT exempt. There were a total of 6 replies a little while ago, all fairly inoccuos,  just wondering why they've disappeared ?  trying to understand the protocols of this site.
[/quote]Mine's gone!

Edit - here is the text:

Suggest to them that they don't come over with company vans with the names of UK outfits emblazoned on the side!  Agree with tetley on this though.  I know a few brits out here who have used, or said they'd use, British "friends" but it's surprising how they don't actually materialise in spite of being offered "a bit of money" for their help.  Projects which would long ago have been finished if they'd used locals, of whatever nationality, remain unfinished.  You're really lucky if they all turn up and I hope they do, for your sake.

[Russethouse]

I can see what has happened - when we delete posts it sometimes happens that the one below it gets deleted too - I'll insert the text into your post above Cooperlola!

Sorry !

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

I can see what has happened - when we delete posts it sometimes happens that the one below it gets deleted too - I'll insert the text into your post above Cooperlola!

Sorry !

[/quote]Ooo, I'm back! Thanks.

[hamlets_shrink]

Thanks for reinstating my missing threads, anyone contemplating

renovating an old wreck in the middle of nowhere in darkest rural

France must already be somewhat threadbare, don't rub it in.

[hamlets_shrink]

Well the guys I'm referring to would definately come over Cooperola and

point taken about the sign written vans, quite a humourous faux pas.

Tetley, one of the lads is actually a stonemason, I've seen his work

and we've had a great working relationship in the past which is mainly

the reason I'm fixated on using him i.e. his skills and our rapport. I

take on board all what you've been saying and it is a big project

involving large areas being built from the ground up, however, I feel

working in this way I can keep very close tabs on what is being spent

on wages whilst also contributing a great deal myself . If I had a

little bit more money I wouldn't need to contemplate working in this

way, but the 64 dollar question is will I get caught?  couldn't

one just say that the personel are not being paid and are only on

holiday ?

You've presented a compelling argument, which may yet sway me to use

only locals all on the books, but also I know great things are

happening basically with husband and wife teamswho get by with a little help from their friends and often other visiting family members.

[cooperlola]

The locals round here aren't just a bit curious, they are down-right nosey and peer up our driveway at every opportunity to see what "les anglais" are doing this week.  However, my neighbour (French) opposite, is doing a big loft conversion doing all the work by himself with the help of friends and family members.  My own instinct would be that if you take your time (ie don't move loads of people in and get a huge and obvious amount of work done in a short time) most of your neighbours will assume that it's a diy project and won't bother you.  They often all "muck in" with friends and family on jobs like this so I don't think it's unreasonable to imagine they would assume you are doing the same.  Make friends with the people around you, that's my best tip, be friendly and they'll be less inclined to "shop" you than if you remain aloof and just apear to be another Brit taking jobs away from locals - that's where the resentment starts.

[hamlets_shrink]

Thanks Cooperlola, you've given the problem a more workable complexion

and what you say makes good sense, particulary making friends with the

locals and keeping everything low key and unhurried. The site itself is

quite secluded being towards the end of a narrow rural laneway that

leads finally to the farmers house. Other than the farmer,  the

nearest neighbours are all English refugees with their last ditch

attempt to get into the property market somewhere, somehow. There's an

ex London truckie nearby, a short bloke in his mid fifties, heavily

tatooed and wearing an earring, he showed me around his little place.

When I arrived I saw his wife of similar age on the battened roof with

a load of clay plain tiles on her shoulder, and up and down the ladder

she went. This guy had done all the electrics himself having studied

various French technical manuals, slowly piecing it all together,

though he spoke no French. The stone work they'd done looked ok and his

half acre appeared  like a veritable market garden. These two were

intent on making their fews pennies stretch a long way in to a rosy

future.

[cooperlola]

A friend of mine describes having stood on a paint tin with a large piece of plaster-board on her head for about an hour while her husband was attaching it to the ceilling.  We wives have are uses![:D]

[Nearly Retired (I am now)]

The suggestions about employing locals instead are all fine and dandy. What if you can't get any? I'm at the stage of wanting to look for British "friends". I'm getting a tad tired of artisans who don't pick up the phone, don't answer messages, ignore letters, never turn up to give a devis unless chased 4 or 5 times, never ever give a starting date - and that's all before looking at a devis price!

I say go for it and import some Poles (er, I mean friends) from Hammersmith.

[Tony F Dordogne]

I think that one of the problems with the French artisans and what we - the incomers - want is that we want everything the way it was (not all the time, granted) back in the UK and we want to get work done NOW.  Surely research before we moved over here and the interminable threads here on this theme would show that if you move here, you must expect this sort of delay, you should plan it into your house purchase/renovation.

If we live in France we have to live by the French model - which may mean having to wait for artisans and chasing them etc, it is something that the French have to do also, it's not aimed at 'us'.

Bringing 'friends' over, paying people to do large scale work off the books (on the black) just confirms French prejudices and eventually takes money away from all registered artisans whether French or people like Val2 who's trying to make a decent and wholly legal living. 

[Chancer]

I can identify with nearly retired's sentiment, I have been here for 18 months (and can speak the language fairly well) and in that time I have had one electrician arrive but never follow up with a devis and one macon, I still wait in hope for that one.

All of the others (and I have made many enquiries) have never turned up, despite me calling several times, the two that did turn up (but not follow through) was after applying pressure through friends of friends.

Luckily I can do most of the work myself but how long a wait should one schedule for the "French way" I ask myself?

I too dream of press-ganging some Poles at Southampton!

I should add that I am doing major project - renovating and converting an old hotel into much needed rental flats, so these are not small DIY jobs that I want artisans to do. If I carry on at my snails pace then I will run out of money before I even get any rental income coming in. This was not something that I could have foreseen and included in my contingency.

However if I had arrived with a gang of Poles 18 months ago (or had been able to find French artisans) I would have been receiving the full rental income for the last 12 months instead of eking out my savings.

Luckily for me I intended to take my time and do most of the work myself, if money had been my first priority I would have stayed in my previous life, however very early on a French friend (who has done the same project in this area) showed me the huge "opportunity cost" of doing the work myself at my rate. So I tried to find artisans and he contacted those that he had used and here I am still waiting 16 months later!

Actually that's not strictly true I have had two days of work done my an apprentice artisan, the plaquist  said he was too busy to come as he was booked for 18 months however his lad did my bands during his holiday and took the equivalent of 35 euros per hour off me for working on the black!

[Miki]

Use your friends, how do people think many French folks get things done

? that for the a huge part, is "the French model" and I am sure Val knows

this 100%. If, by the remotest chance you do get the gendarmes pass by,

they

are cousins and in laws or whatever. Dodgy if they fall off the roof

though........as long as you let them know the score and how things are

different here, you will be fine. As soon as you can and are able to

afford it, I am sure you  will use the local artisans, if and when

they are available

They are over on holiday, seeing the sites and at times, giving you a

hand, nothing sinister in that. We used all the help we could get in

our early days and were extremely

grateful for it. I am not saying we don't use artisans, in fact ever

since being here, rooves, plumbing and electrics have all been done

(bar the odd bit of work by me !) by French chaps and there has been a

mountain of it done but much of the other

stuff has been done by me alone, or helped by friends and family......

[hamlets_shrink]

Thanks Miki, this is what I want to hear really, so long as there's no

horror stories of 'friends' and helpers  being rounded up by the

gendarmes and carted off, and there doesn't seem to be many such

stories. As you say, the local Artisans will get their fair share when

I'm more established, I just want to get myself ahead a little bit

first. There's enough stress and worry associated with the move for

various reasons you don't want large quotes from artisans demoralising

you before you've even got started. It seems with the previous posts by

'nearly retired' and JR  showing a laxity among the locals

artisans in following up leads, delivering quotes and even returning

phone calls; this can only mean they're extremely busy and have no

shortage of work or income. I'm sure the 'French Way' doesn't involve a

self imposed 'go slow' that will by definition compromise their own

income. If these guys are too busy to be bothered, there's no reason to

lose sleep about depriving them the option of a few extra pennies.

[Chancer]

[quote user="hamlets_shrink"]. If these guys are too busy to be bothered, there's no reason to lose sleep about depriving them the option of a few extra pennies.
[/quote]

Absolutely! I am sure that in this area all the good artisans are well booked up, which would make you paranoid if someone were available!

I also believe that the system disencourages people from setting up on their own hence the lack of artisans, or Poles!

[powerdesal]

Interesting comments, especially considering the many, many comments of about a year ago about 'black work' taking the bread from the mouths of honest tradesmen.

We have been trying to get a roof quote for over a year - no one interested. At last the work is going to be done by a local French roofer, young lad, young family, son-in-law of a friend. I am 'sure' its on the black but as he is local, grew up locally, employed locally, everyone knows him and his parents, who exactly is going to 'shop' him not me thats for sure. He needs the money, we need the job done.