Service valves

[andyps]

For the plumbing work I am planning I would like to install service valves as used in the UK but couldn't find any in the local brico places on my last visit. Are they sold in France for 14mm tubes? I did buy a bigger, probably more robust valve but the cost including fittings was probably 5 times the price a service valve is from B&Q.

Cheers

Andy

[La Guerriere]

Haven't seen any, and agree they would be a very good idea on all new work. I am stunned by the price of plumbing fittings in the big sheds. I know the price of copper is soaring but the Channel should not make that much difference.

[Le Plombier]

Stopcocks can be purchased for soldered connection, in all sizes to suit the French pipe sizes

Other valves are generally screwed for male or female connection, you just use the approprate male or female screwed to copper fitting

Ballofix type valves with nuts and olives for compression joints are available

Le Plombier

[andyps]

[quote user="Le Plombier"]

Stopcocks can be purchased for soldered connection, in all sizes to suit the French pipe sizes

Other valves are generally screwed for male or female connection, you just use the approprate male or female screwed to copper fitting

Ballofix type valves with nuts and olives for compression joints are available

Le Plombier

[/quote]

 

Cheers, that sounds like the sort of thing I did see and have bought one of, but the cost is pretty excessive for putting one on the tube to each of the taps and the loo in the bathroom - probably something like €75 instead of the €15 they would cost in the UK. Maybe if someone made a 14 to 15 mm connector....

[Le Plombier]

I find it hard to believe the prices you quote for valves, assuming we are talking about the same thing

The problem with the Bricos is you pay for the packaging

Go to a professional plumbing and heating supplier, even though you pay the full retail price it will be a lot cheaper than the Brico, plus they will give you advice on what you should be using

Apart from isolation valves on toilet cisterns, cost about 2 euros, isolation valves are mainly a nuisance, they are never used and when you do use them the glands leak when they are disturbed

When I need to isolate the water supply in a client's house I generally shut off the incoming main at the meter pit

Minimum disruption provided all work is done ready for a change over and no problem disturbing old valves

The water systems here are all direct off the main with no storage cisterns, shut off the one valve and all you hot and cold supplies are isolated

Le Plombier

[Anton Redman]

Did not think there was anything in it price wise see links below: The norm in France for new houses and refurbishments is to have two manifolds (same word as exhaust manifold) with hot and cold pipes to each bathroom, shower room, kitchen or other room that has plumbing. If you are doing a full rebuild you can buy manifolds that have valves incorporated. The plumber the previous owner used incorporated  valves after the manifolds. They do have their uses particularly if your spouse decides to change the kitchen sink rather more often than you change you knickers. First year in last English house we.

 

Moved but did not replace the round bowls because we wanted to put a dishwasher in and could not afford a new sink.

Installed an Completely Reprehensible Alternative Product sink because it was what we could afford

Installed a good Ikea sink

Installed a Franke because somebody literally was prepared to pay to have their old kitchen removed before they installed a Mark Wilkinson kitchen

 

Although my plumbing is almost invariably continent I prefer the flexibility and lack of time pressure that two check valves a room give you. Although the copper pipe and braized joints in the utility room of out current house are attractive to look at there are well over twice as many joints as there need to be.

 

Price links below :

 

http://www.bricodepot.fr/bordeaux/taxonomy/1/146/172

 

http://www.diy.com/diy/jsp/bq/nav/nav.jsp?action=detail&fh_secondid=9265025&fh_view_size=6&fh_start_index=6&fh_sort_order=1&fh_sort_by=_price_rrp_min&fh_location=%2f%2fcatalog01%2fen_GB&fh_search=Valve&fh_eds=%c3%9f&fh_refview=search&ts=1219426799839&isSearch=true

[andyps]

Le Plombier - I know what you are saying about the service valves not getting much use, but there are times when I do find them useful, and particularly when you don't keep a large stock of plumbing bits can be very helpful if a small job of replacing a tap or even a washer doesn't go as smoothly as planned (last washer I changed in France the innards of the tap had corroded and needed a complete replacement) and you have to make a trip to get parts at least the rest of the water circuit is available.

Anton - looks like I need a trip to Brico Depot, the vannes à sphère manette in your link is the same as the one I bought, but I paid about €8 for, plus fittings to connect it to the tube - and that was from a builders merchants not Bricolage type place. Interestingly, the prices vary considerably at different Brico Depots - Quimper which is probably best for me the price is €3.20 compared to €2.70 at your location! Manifolds are an interesting idea and could work well for the cold supply I will be installing, just need to make a way to access it rather than hide it as I was planning for the pipework where one would go.

Cheers for the help guys.

[Le Plombier]

For maintenance and repair of taps the best method is to use the small ballofix type valves

You can get them with compression joints, fit one end with a compression joint to the copper final connection to the tap, discard the nut and olive at the other end of the valve and connect the tap flexible direct to the thread, the threads on the valve are standard 3/8 inch

These valves should only cost a couple of euros each

Generally there is a hugh variety of washers and ceramic tap seats in France and it is difficullt to establish the correct replacement, unless you have expensive taps it is normally quicker and cheaper just to replace the tap

Manifold systems are widely used but mainly for new builds where pipework can easily be concealed in walls and floors

Conventional systems with branches to appliances are generally the norm for refurbishment unless there is extensive work to the walls and floor

Le Plombier

[Chancer]

If by ballofix valves you mean "vannes à sphères"  then be carefull with the cheap brico-depot ones, I have had two catastrophic in service failures with these.

The end fittings are screwed into the casing by only two loctited threads which in turn holds the valve seats in place, tightening the mating fittings can cause the threads to strip or the casing to crack, in both my cases the leaks did not start for a long while after.

I think in hindsight I must have overtightened the joints but no tighter than many hundreds of other recalcitrant plumbing joints which have never failed.

I would never again use the UK type isolating valves, cheap they may be but the moment that you use on for its purpose of isolating an appliance or leaky pipe/hose, (not unreasonable you would think) they spring their own leak necessitating a trip to the bricolage which will of course be closed.

[Le Plombier]

There are different quality valves

If you use the ones with brass olives you will not have a problem, do not use the ones with plastic olives

You can also get them where you have to swage out and flatten the copper tube end, do not use this type unless you do that otherwise they will come apart given time

I frequently use the ones with brass olives and I have never had a problem

Le Plombier

[Chancer]

Good to see the norml page width return!

The vannes à sphère (full bore ball) valves that I used had male or female threaded ends, these were/are the only ones available at Brico-depot. I connected them to the corresponding soldered fitting using a fibre washer so did not really need to overtighten them.

While I have your attention Mr le plombier  can you recommend a chain of plumbers merchants?

I did everything myself on my first apartment plumbing, electrics the lot and have a further 6 to commence as soon as I have finished the exterior of the building, I learnt a lot and given the tripling of the price of copper since I started I need to be very conscious of what I buy and from where.

I am currently doing an exercise with an English friend (we will soon be fitting out his new build in the Dordogne) on the comparative prices of copper and plastic pipes and fittings, and also between the two countries before we tackle his place, this will help me decide and plan for my works. what is your opinion on the relative (whole job) costs between the two systems in France?

And finally where can I find some half decent looking and reasonably priced pipe clips? I refuse to continue using colliers atlas as to my mind they belong in a Jules Verne novel[:)]

[Le Plombier]

I use Cedeo, and less often Cobatri

You can google cedeo.fr for infomation on local branches

I don't use plastic pipe

PER, in my opinion is only suitable for new work or installations where it can be completely concealed

I use copper or PEX multicouche which is an aluminium pipe coated inside and outside

Both look neat when surface fixed

You can get plastic push fit and other similar systems but you won't find them for sale in French professional outlets and I don't know of any professionals who use these systems, we have to cover our work for 10 years under our decennal insurance

With PER, PEX and the other professional systems you need to be prepared to invest 2000 euros on the crimping machine, heads and other tools to be able to install the pipework. I know with PER you can get a small selection of manual compression fittings but you end up with too many screwed mechanical joints without the crimper.

Unless you are prepared to make the investment in the professional tools you would probably find it cheaper to stick with copper

If you use copper buy everything in France

Collier Atlas is the standard pipe clip here, it's the system that all the professionals use

Le Plombier

 

 

[Chancer]

Thank you LP

I do have access to a crimping machine and as nearly all the pipework can be concealed between floors I may give it a go, do you think that it would be cheaper than copper including crimp fittings (ignoring the tooling cost)?

Re collier atlas, I know its what everyone uses (and evidently all that is available) and I am asking you this respectfully knowing that you are a professional, - dont you think they are pants [:D]compared to what we were using in the late 60's in the UK let alone these days?

[Le Plombier]

PER is the cheapest but you need to convert to copper when you come to the surface or it looks terrible

Also allow for expansion as the hot supplies will move all over the place, I generally use PER as a last resort although it is widely used here

Copper and PEX multicouche are about the same cost, copper more labour intensive, PEX multicouche fittings are very expensive but it is quicker to install

If you have any doubts about your soldering then go for a crimped system, it is easy to make a soldered joint that might look good but is a bad joint, a properly crimped joint will not leak, a good quality crimper will have indicator lights to confirm a correctly made joint 

I use Oventrop multicouche and it is the only system that I am aware of where the manufactures guarantee buried crimped joints

You may have a crimper but the heads for all the different copper, PER, PEX multicouche systems are unique to each system

They cost about 150 euros a head and you will need a minimum of two up to possibly five dependant on what wotk you are doing in a domestic dwelling

I disagree with you on the collier atlas, it is a good system and the base components are the same for all tubes and electrical systems which makes it easier to stock a complete range of what you might possibly need

Le Plombier