PLASTIC OR COPPER PIPES FOR PLUMBING??????????????

[cowoman]

We have just bought a house in France that needs a bathroom putting in.I am thinking of going on a five day plumbing course aimed at what i want to do.There is one thing that concerns me,the course uses copper piping but I am told that plastic push fit pipes and fittings are cheaper and easier to use.Are they commonly used in France? And are they as cheap as they are here?

(england)

 

Thanks in advance

 

[Chancer]

I had a long chat with an eastern european immigrant plumber at a brocante last year, he assured me that PU was cheaper and better than copper but that most plombiers in my region are too traditional or backward to use it, after all who still wants to use colliers atlas?

Having just weighed in a load of old copper and been shocked at the (high) price I got I am sure now that I will be using PU for the rest of my plumbing unles it has increased as much as copper.

When I did the calcs last year it was the cost of the fittings that were disproportionately expensive unless I got a good discount from the fournisseurs, I am sure that it is even more "rentable" and will do the calcs again soon.

Or you could of course bring the fittings and pipe over from the UK but it wont be in gaine, does anyone know if this is just another requirement or actually brings some benefit i.e. better thermal retention? as I am bloody sure that you wont be able to withdraw the tube to replace it at a later date like you should (but most times cannot) with precabled electrical gaines.

[Gyn_Paul]

I'm sure the idea of gaine-ing (?) PER piping where it's to be buried in plaster or concrete is just a carry-over from the copper days. Like you say it would be impossible to pull the PER out of embedded gaines; the gaine itself provides precious little additional protection (it aint gonna stop a masonary drill or a nail - gun nail !) it has next to no insulation qualities..... it's original purpose was to protect the Cu from the corrosive effects of the cement, obviously not necessary with plastic, so why bother?

After all, wet under-floor heating is simply a serpent of PER embedded in a concrete screed.

Personally I bury cold PER 'as-is' and hot encased in foam insulation. Works OK so far !

And just to pick up on your last point, I wonder how many times a professional electrician actually bothers (or indeed has the need to) pull cables out of gaines to replace them?

I'll bet it's a practice "more honoured in the breach than the observance"

p

[powerdesal]

[quote user="Gyn_Paul"]

And just to pick up on your last point, I wonder how many times a professional electrician actually bothers (or indeed has the need to) pull cables out of gaines to replace them?

I'll bet it's a practice "more honoured in the breach than the observance"

p

[/quote]

Has anyone actually had Consuel pull a cable to check that it "correctly" met the code - I doubt it, but I'm a cynic anyway.

[Gluestick]

Has anyone any comments about plastic plumbing pipe expanding when it's hot, being used on view for central heating runs?

OK if buried, but what about having to post-install along -above - (e.g.) skirting tiles?

Opal Fruit provides a nice graphic image of this expansion effect!

 

[Gyn_Paul]

Yes it does expand. A lot.

I've plumbed in rads with both copper and PER. The latter where I know they will be replaced by a sous-sol system eventually, and I have to say it looks pretty crap snaking down the wall. the minimum curve is huge, and the compression elbows (and 'T's) are - subjectively - bigger and clumpier than their copper equivalents. All in all it looks, as a friend of mine would say, " a bit Barry Bucknell".

If you can afford the time to do it in copper anywhere where the pipework is exposed, I'd recommend you do so. Save the PER for the encastred places.

p

[BIG MAC]

Pretty much standard procedure these days the use of cabled plastic pipe where not visible (Advantage no concealed joins except where it goes from plastic to copper for aesthetics) I am no fan of  speedfit type systems but theres little denying they do the job, they just look cack.

[Yachty]

If say using Hep2O 15mm or 22mm plastic piping, do compression fittings exist locally to reduce or otherwise to French ridgid pipe diameters, if so what is the correct terminology for such?

Thankyou gentlemen.

[Gyn_Paul]

You won’t find adapters or reducers to go from French to UK pipe sizes; 15mm for example is halfway between the two popular French sizes 12/14 and 14/16 (being int/ext measurements).

However the threads do exist. 3/8”, ½”, and ¾” are respectively 12/17, 15/21,and 20/27. so adapting from HEP to French fittings and pipes is possible, but – unless you’ve got lots of UK stuff laying around which you absolutely must use up – you might well find you’ve made yourself (as in Anton’s example) a hostage to fortune on a Sunday afternoon).

[Simon]

The 22 mm Hep will fit the french 22 mm copper, so you can move onto UK size 15 mm via that route, having said that you can get the french sizes here in France so why bother.

[Yachty]

Thanks for your comments.

I am not rty to re-invent the wheel in plumbing terms however, I have considerable stocks of the aforementioned brand and a requirement to replumb house entirely. That said the house is small and on the wet side will only require one kitchen and one shower room/loo. My train of thought was as follows.......... Fit pressure reducer after internal meter and then go to 15mm Hep throughout. Obviously the first length out of the hot water cylinder will be in copper but thereafter continue in 15mm.

In previous forums it has been suggested that compression fitting do indeed exist to adapt between UK and French. My main issue would be going from 14mm incoming. Again other parties have suggested UK compression, "wound up" would suffice.

Thanks.

 

[Pierre ZFP]

[quote user="Yachty"]

Again other parties have suggested UK compression, "wound up" would suffice.

[/quote]

Nah, this doesn't work.  In desparation I tried it once.  There's no way to compress it enough for a watertight joint.

[Gluestick]

The only reliable way to go from French 14 m.m to Imperial 15 m.m. is to "Bell" the 15 m.m. after enough heat to make it malleable and solder the 14 m.m. inside the 15 m.m.

Or better, braze it for permanence.

Which is all fine, until a few years later on a Friday afternoon (just prior to a Bank Holiday, when you have guests) you suffer a tragic leak in a 15 m.m. imperial fitting......................................

[:'(]

[Yachty]

I think I understand  what is being said, eBay my Hep2O!

Okay then, assuming I continue with the existing 14mm and run the supply throughout in said diametre, presumably there is a French 14mm pushfit plastic pipe system?

I understand French copper is less malleable, therefore not so readily bent. Do Yorkshire type pre soldiered joints exist.

Again Thanks! 

[Gluestick]

French copper comes in two basic types.

One is in coils and this is malleable.

The other is in lengths and this requires significant annealing, prior to bending attempts.

It is very tough, so be warned!

I broke a cheap (monkey metal formers) pipe bender on some straight 16 m.m. French copper tube, despite what I thought was enough annealing last year.

 

[Yachty]

What about plastic piping? Assuming this exists per UK, would it be in say 14mm and interfaced with either straight compression coupling or pushfit equivelent?

Nearing end of my interrogation!

[Gluestick]

PER is nominal in 12, 16 and 20 m.m.

Polyethylene is normally found in 20, 25 and 32 m.m.

Haven't seen any push fit thus far in either Bricodepot (both Bruay and Boulogne) store: or my local specialists.

In fact, I am desperately searching for some 16 m.m. (OD) compression fittings for my water pipes: it was all run in black polyethylene: and nowhere can I find some new 16 m.m compression fittings!

Apparently, this size in polyethylene is now obsolete.

Which aint 'andy, arry!

[:@]

 

[Yachty]

let me know if I can pick them up here in UK.

Will arrive Barcelona and drive to Carcassonne Thursday.

[Anton Redman]

Bricodepot catalogue 2007 pages 85 ( also in 2008 but my copy is in the car)  – Raccords Rapides a clipser et domontables.  They do 12mm, 14mm and 16mm only.

They do reducing and ordinary ‘T’ .

Reducing and straight joining pieces.

Mixte Manchon Male ( attach a normal compression fitting)

90 degree coude ( female / tap connectors)

Bouchong ( end stops) in 12,14, and 16

Flexiable tap connectors.

Kit de montage ( very useful when some idiot puts their little finger on a joint)

They are in a very small section in Bordeaux and Perigeaux

 

If you buy a pair of 15mm half inch ( or 15/21 as the French occasionaly call them) in the UK) and you buy a pair of 14mm 15/21 compression joints you will have four connectors which will join 14 mm to 15mm. If you use 15mm in France you are well and truly shafted when somebody puts a nail through a pipe. I found out the above works for up to at least 10 bar when English friends with two left hands did for their English plumbing in French house one New Years Eve. You can find 15 mm joints in the better Quinqulleries and plumbers merchants as there are old French houses with half inch copper.

If you buy copper pipe on a coil you still need the € 14.89 Matrice avec Entrier  shown on page 320 of the same catalogue Otherwise you will never get the pipes round enough to have a water tight joint.

 

I would rather remove my own appendix with the aid of a plasterboard saw and a bottle of Cognac for both analgesic and antiseptic than use glue together French plastic plumbing for either hot or cold water. The only reason I can see for using UK 15 mm fittings in France is that you have a huge stock left over from your days as a plumber

 

[Yachty]

When you suggest two pairs of 15mm and 14mm compression fittings, I assume that one set would have to be female or tap connectors to be compatible for a join betwixt the two, if I understand you correctly?

You flatter me in using the term plumber! Or perhaps your intention is otherwise!!!

Indeed I do have a quantity of UK fittings, main pex variety. Also, from a DIY perspective it is easier to cope with the familiar. As you suggest the local pipe is not so readily bent and the variety of alternatives not as abundant as in Blighty. In aiming to use familiar fittings, the job could be done within a day, entirely replumbing house. However, alternative is funding anothers lifestyle and Mr Sarkozy et al.

[Simon]

French sized HEP2O available here http://www.realheating.com/?lng=en they will deliver.

Simon

[Anton Redman]

' When you suggest two pairs of 15mm and 14mm compression fittings, I assume that one set would have to be female or tap connectors to be compatible for a join betwixt the two, if I understand you correctly? '

Sorry I have not been clear. These are the straight connectors which are used to joint two pieces of pipe ( 90 degree bends will work equally well. Both ends are male (threaded on the outside)

You take the nut and olive from one end of the French 14 mm and replace the 15 mm  nut and olive on one end of the UK 15mm connector. You can then use the 15mm nut and olive on the French purchased 14mm connector. Result two connectors for 14mm to15 mm. You can also go up to 16mm using a straight 16mm French connector.

[Yachty]

Ahhh! I get you.

Presumably wound up with plenty of ptf tape and the coupling should be pretty failsafe?

Thanks to you all gentlemen.

Now, how to get my wife back into the kitchen?

[sheldonrobbo]

Simplest and cheapest way to connect 15mm uk pipe to 14mm french pipe is by using a 15mm straight compression fitting and buy a 14mm olive from a french brico.....put the french olive in one end instead of the 15 mm olive and hey presto the perfect fitting......will be perfectly ok even with high pressure water systems ...always assuming you tighten it up enough of course

 

good luck

 

sheldon

[Yachty]

Hep2o actually do a 16mm range of pipe and fittings, available as a special order as very few merchants will stock, and cheaper in UK than in France.  A push fit socket reducer 16 to 15mm exists also.