belu Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 After 6 weeks I managed to get quotes for a small amount of building work from 2 different builders (one French, one English). I decided to go with the English builder as he was prepared to give us 2 prices (one of which would involve us doing the finishing off and thereby saving us a few euros)!! I signed the quote and sent this back to him at the beginning of July with a note asking him when he could start the job - he replied "in a week or so". By the end of July I still had not heard from him and emailed asking whether he was still interested in doing the work - after another 4 weeks had passed I got an short email back saying "yes, but he had been away". It is now mid September and still no sign of the builder. Am I within my rights to cancel my instruction for him to carry out the work and if so, should I send a recorded delivery letter or would another email be sufficient? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnOther Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 Unless you have agreed in writing to the delays I would say that if he has so comprehensively failed to honour the contract then you can just tell him to get lost whichever way you like.I think what I would do in this cicumstance is send him an email saying that unless he started the job within the next 7 days, and undertook to complete it in a timely manner, then I would consider the contract void and cancelled.Is he properly established with SIRET No. etc. because if not then he cannot complain to anyone anyway as he is illegal.Sounds like he has sucessfully integrated into French life [blink] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert the InfoGipsy Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 I'm no legal expert, but I'd broadly agree with ErnieY. However, knowing the French love of such things I'd go for a recorded delivery letter for the ultimatum and for any confirmed cancellation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Avery Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 A word of caution before you do anything. What is plan B? What are your alternatives? A lot of builders do a lot of devis, but they do not know how many will be taken up. If they are good builders and offer a good price, they may get far more work than expected or planned for and then have to juggle the work, and that causes delays to starts and work all round.Few if any builders in France can be relied on to start small jobs on time and give reliable forecasts of work duration, that is the nature of the industry, so there is little that you can do other than to get on their case, a daily call seems to work, it grinds them down and lets them know that you want the work done and are not prepared to wait, he who shouts loudest seems to prosper where builders in France are concerned. [I]The problem that you have now is whether the French builder or any other builder is going to want the job now? If they do, find out how much work they have and when they can start it. The danger is that if you sack the English builder, you could actually end up with no builder at all or get rid of one who still may actually do the job in a lot shorter timescale than if you start anew with another builder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patf Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 Another point: if at this stage you have given a deposit, eg for materials, don't expect to get it back.Not sure about the legal position on this, but I've heard that they are legally entitled to keep it if you've signed the devis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancer Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 Whilst I agree in sentiment with Ernie and Albert and given that the guy is English the suggestions may probably work, I feel compelled to post to explain that in the circumstances that you outlined, here in France you are not within your rights to cancel the contract, in fact you dont have any rights, its the builder with the signed devi that does!I had a very similar situation last year and decided to cancel a contract after waiting nearly a year for a job promised to be done within the next quinze jours, it had got to the stage where I could no longer work around it and by then was prevented from doing any further works unless I did the quoted job (external rendering) myself. My phone calls were not being returned and letters including avis de la reception were not answered.I took advice from several learned and experienced French friends and was told universally that I couldnt cancel the contract, if I did the works myself or got someone else to do it the artisan could and mst certainly would take me to court and win.The following is what I was advised to do and did although it stuck mightily in my throat at the time as I simply wanted to tell him face to face to "stuff it". I quote from my actual letter now (sent avis but again unacknowledged) it is better in French as it doesnt survive the translation well. MonsieurEn raison d'un accident entraînant une hospitalisation longue durée, je me trouve dans un situation financiere difficile .............................(details omitted)Par conséquent, j'ai le regret de vous annoncer que je ne pourrai pas honerer ma comande pour la réalisation des travaux.Veuillez agréer Monsieur l'expression de mes sentiments les meillures et vous remercie de votre compréhension ..............Basically I had to apologise for not being able to honour my side of the contract (regardless of the fact that he didnt) and to thank him for his understanding [:@]This didnt give me any legal rights but might have some influence on a sympathetic tribunal, the main reason was to push home the point that it was not worth pursuing me if I didnt have the means to pay.The story didnt end there and this potential debt still hangs over me, I will explain later but for now le travail calls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 I'm in a similar situation, after 2 years chasing my Roofer, I told him I was going to look for someone else. I actually found someone, wrote (emailed) to the original who was very understanding. Couple of emails exchanged where he wanted to be considered again before I finally made my mind up, to which I said I wanted a fixed start and finish date. Also and in accordance with his devis what is the increase if any, according to the building index he quoted. He answered within 3 days saying he was sorry for the delay would have the answer by the end of the week. A month later nothing. Fearing possible loss of the other guy I wrote again referring to the lack of response and that I was going elsewhere. Within a day or so, no mention of my latest email (or it's any of it's content in the reply) just a simple reply giving November/December start finish dates and 8% increase - at the moment.I wrote back to say sorry, but as per my last email it is too late and I have given the go ahead to the other contractor.That was just before August and presumably holidays. Nothing since and now I'm extremely worried. Suspicious, particularly in the light of the very latest ignoring my cancelling email. Now, the chap is in fact a very nice person, his English is not good (his wife's is) and my French limited. I've always sent both versions in case. He helped me in getting permission for veluxes and I've helped him with some tech translated roofing sketches for his quotes. However I now feel over a barrel, though no money is involved - I actually haven't as yet given the go ahead to the other chap, but do I simply wait and see what happens and how long can this go on for? My inclination was to send a recorded letter, but perhaps I've shot myself in the foot brining up the subject of dates again. - although the roof is not leaking I don't want to do too much more on the loft conversion until it has been done.Would appreciate any advice on the subject - my desired outcome would be to forget the original guy altogether, but concerned he will pursue a claim for loss of profit etc. It may be that I'm doing him a dis-service and he's simply writing it off, not bothering anymore and why should he? [:(] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panda Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 HelloI found myself in a similar situation with a french plumber when I first arrived in France and after taking advice from my then prof at Uni I sent a letter stating I had taken legal advice and due to his failure to start the works in a reasonable time he was in breach of contract and I would be seeking legal recourse to have the devis cancelled. He called me on receipt of the registered letter and started the next day, it was a large contract for 4 cetral heating systems so he had a lot to lose, he was always a pain in the rear though and I would never now sign a devis without a start date and expected completion date. Panda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 I was trying to keep the above short and forgot to add that the devis he and I signed included, in his handwriting a start date and length of time he thought it would take.His services were recommended and we know for a fact that the emergency services are always calling on him - but during our recent exchanges he referred to ours being a second home etc etc to which I responded it always will be until I can finish the renovation. He seemed to be understanding at that time and thought the matter was resolved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jondeau Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 I find it a bit difficult to understand the mentality of the people on this site........you seem to be obsessed with the idea that some tradesman will pursue you through the courts (and win ) for not turning up on time to do your job.It is a load of rubbish.For heavens sake.........if somebody does not turn up to do a job when they said they would........then you say goodbye. Simple as that,........or maybe somebody can quote me a legally binding judgement where a tardy builder gained from doing nothing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belu Posted September 12, 2008 Author Share Posted September 12, 2008 Thanks all for your most helpful and reassuring replies. The other (French) builder we got the quote from has done work for us before and turns up when he says he will (how surprising is that!) but regretably we decided not to use him because, as explained, he would only quote for the whole job which is beyond our budget. I will give the English guy an ultimatum (yes he is registered in France) and if nothing, I will then approach the French builder again and beg for a lower quote! He is a reasonable and very nice chap so don't envisage any problems with him. He is also partial to a small brandy and homemade sausage roll!! Thanks again everyone and good luck George with your ongoing problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted September 13, 2008 Share Posted September 13, 2008 [quote user="jondeau"] I find it a bit difficult to understand the mentality of the people on this site........you seem to be obsessed with the idea that some tradesman will pursue you through the courts (and win ) for not turning up on time to do your job.It is a load of rubbish.For heavens sake.........if somebody does not turn up to do a job when they said they would........then you say goodbye.Simple as that,........or maybe somebody can quote me a legally binding judgement where a tardy builder gained from doing nothing[/quote]There's no doubt there's something to what you say and I sincerely hope nobody comes back with such an example.The simple fact is of course even though they could would they and I suppose that I was happily going along on the same lines until those suspicions arose.As I see it, my problem is do I take that risk and for something like 10k is it worth his time and damaged reputation (because even if he were in the right, word would get around). It would cost him time and fees and likewise. I have no reason to question the impartiality of the French legal system, but would I be confident. Sad to say I wouldn't be that confident in the UK or I have to say with some of our "contractors"and perhaps it's this that makes me worry.I'm getting a bit long in the tooth to simply ignore these things.I hope Jondeau that you're right - I have been looking forward to moving away from all the stories of conmen and suchlike ripping off people here at this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancer Posted September 13, 2008 Share Posted September 13, 2008 [quote user="jondeau"] I find it a bit difficult to understand the mentality of the people on this site........you seem to be obsessed with the idea that some tradesman will pursue you through the courts (and win ) for not turning up on time to do your job.It is a load of rubbish.For heavens sake.........if somebody does not turn up to do a job when they said they would........then you say goodbye. Simple as that,........or maybe somebody can quote me a legally binding judgement where a tardy builder gained from doing nothing[/quote]JondeauEmotive, opinionated and uninformed postings like yours are the reason that many people choose not to reply to OP's asking if anyone has any personal experience of certain subjects.To George and Belu, if you want any further information you can contact me by PM, I can assure you that after taking the counsel of several learned friends including a Notaire, Avocat, building company boss and a Hussier they all gave me the same advice, it was born out by the events that followed and hence not rubbish..Regarding whether tradesman do in fact follow up on these things, many do (including my enduiser) the tell tale signs are that communication is always one way until the job has been done by others when they then arrive to start work, the actions are funded by their trade associations, they always win if a devi has been signed. It would be prudent to discreetly ask around whether the artisans concerned has before commenced proceedings or witheld deposits etc. You may be able to decide yourself on the character of the artisans concerned, what is their image of themselves, "I am not an easy touch and I have a reputation to uphold" or "I just want to be respected by others in the community" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catalpa Posted September 13, 2008 Share Posted September 13, 2008 [quote user="jondeau"]....or maybe somebody can quote me a legally binding judgement where a tardy builder gained from doing nothing [/quote]Yes I can - it's called a signed devis, issued by a French-registered enterprise and accepted by the client. Although... I sense from the tone of your comments that you've probably not had much experience of those. [6] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnOther Posted September 13, 2008 Share Posted September 13, 2008 Hardly surprising that there are so many Brit builders/plumbers/electricians working on the black then is it [blink] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jondeau Posted September 13, 2008 Share Posted September 13, 2008 QuoteJondeauEmotive, opinionated and uninformed postings like yours are the reason that many people choose not to reply to OP's asking if anyone has any personal experience of certain subjects. I see.......so you should only post what people want to hear then ? It may be of interest for you to know that a few years ago I used to work with a French builder in Charente Maritime......he frequently complained about clients changing their minds, altering the job specifications and late stage payments. However though he ranted and raved about this he never pursued anybody through the courts.He did just walk off more than one job though.The point of this is, that though most of you seem to be obsessed with being sued even when you have done nothing wrong.......the truth probably is that builders have enough hassle on their hands with their workload without getting involved with unnecessary litigation. I do fear that a lot of people on this site always take the most pessimistic view, and then proceed to paint it even blacker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted September 18, 2008 Share Posted September 18, 2008 [quote user="JRs gone native"][quote user="jondeau"] .........To George and Belu, if you want any further information you can contact me by PM, I can assure you that after taking the counsel of several learned friends including a Notaire, Avocat, building company boss and a Hussier they all gave me the same advice, it was born out by the events that followed and hence not rubbish..[/quote][/quote]hi JRMany thanks to you and the others for taking time to reply. I have indeed sent you a PM to follow up.One further observation on the subject. I relayed the story to the other contractor mentioned and he perfectly understood my concerns. He didn't offer any advice, just to say get back to me when you have it sorted. Which in hindsight is probably adding to my worries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Val_2 Posted September 18, 2008 Share Posted September 18, 2008 To add our recent experience. Following a current legal battle with a non-paying client with whom we never wish to have dealings with again like all the other artisans in our area, we had further signed devis for other work ontheir property which obviously we are not doing now. We received a letter from their avocat via ours to OFFICIALLY WRITE A LETTER releasing this work for them to find another artisan to do(poor unsuspecting so and so) as you cannot legally pull out of a signed devis just like that because it is a binding legal contract if signed by both parties! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savvysarthe Posted September 27, 2008 Share Posted September 27, 2008 In response to concerns. If the orignal devis was not in french then its not worth the paper its written on, also if a start date and a time scale is included (which it should be anyway) then you're well within your rights to question and even revoke the contract as in effect it has not been honoured by the artisan as he hasn't turned up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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