mike.m Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Hello, We've had a burst pipe ( central heating pipe underground but luckily only two feet from the rad ). I contacted the artisans who had put in a new boiler and ballon over the summer . Their work and approach had been excellent and I was confident they would do a good job . When they arrived it was a new face who had just taken over the business .The work was solid ; three hours digging ; two hours fitting a short replacement pipe ; an hours refilling and bleeding the system . One man (a young employee ) six hours in total .The bill arrived and I was disappointed at the total of almost 500 euros . The work on the new installation had taken 8 man days for 1400 euro. I think I had a good deal on theearlier work and have been overcharged by the new owner for the repair. Before I approach the man I would appreciate any feedback from wiser heads ; am I being unrealistic in thinking 500 is too much for less than a days work ( next to no material costs ) ? Does anyone have an idea of the hourly rates for this kind of work ( Burgundy ) . Many thanks for advice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonrouge Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Hi we have just had a problem with an overflow back into the kitchen from the dishwasher and sink unit that sort of thing. Lets forget the cost of the camera up the drains that sort of thing and just concentrate upon the leak side.Our local plumber literally 500 yards away put in all the electrics and plumbing in our house and was (is) French.He had to dig up (newly placed) tiled kitchen floor and dig out about a metre run to a depth of about half a metre! to locate the problem.I have his bill to hand and ok I helped to cart away the rubbish that sort of thing but he was here for six hours working his backside off and charged us 37 euros an euro plus tva.Hope that helps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giantpanda Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Hi!Normally you should have had a quote. ( Legally ).Yours,giantpanda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Trollope Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Not so There is no legal requirement for a devis for any work - it is sensible, however. In the OPs case, he did not get (ask for) a devis, so he is stuck with the bill. All he can do is speak to the plumber and get him to reduce it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punch Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 [quote user="Nick Trollope"] Not so There is no legal requirement for a devis for any work - it is sensible, however. In the OPs case, he did not get (ask for) a devis, so he is stuck with the bill. All he can do is speak to the plumber and get him to reduce it.[/quote]Are you absolutely sure about that Nick ? I'm with GiantPanda on this one. As I have always understood it a devis for works estimated at over 150€ is obligatory . It's what my accountant has always told me. I found an arrête that may be relevant;Prestations de dépannage, de réparation et d’entretien dans le secteur du bâtiment et de l’équipement de la maison. L’établissement d’un devis est obligatoire pour les prestations suivantes dont le montant TTC est estimé à plus de 150 € (arrêté du 2 mars 1990 modifié par l’arrêté du 30 juillet 1999) : For the OP it is difficult to comment on his actual case as I would prefer to see the facture but I was called out to an electrical/plumbing problem between Christmas and the New year (on a Sunday) and my bill came to 150€ plus TVA, which included 2hrs labour and 1.5 hours travelling, so yes it does see a little high ( Or maybe I'm too cheap! ) . Every artisan should have their rates displayed at their premises which should include such items as hourly rate and frais de déplacement ( callout and travelling costs). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachapapa Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 On the black € 15-20/hr; not on black € 30-50/hr. Depends a lot where you live; a plumber will cost more in Menton than Clochemerde. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tj Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 A days work, 2 men, emergency callout, can't be far out I dont think.But is a reminder to discuss the cost in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punch Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 [quote user="tj"]A days work, 2 men, emergency callout, can't be far out I dont think.But is a reminder to discuss the cost in advance. [/quote]Although it is a bit ambiguos, I took it from the OP's post that it was just one man attending and not two ?? If it was just for one then I still say too expensive but if it was for two then probably about right. Perhaps the OP can clarify and give us the detail of the facture? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonrouge Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Are we really saying that if we say have water plus other stuff overflowing back into the kitchen or in the case of the OP a problem with let us say CH that we ask for a written devis. Surely until these guys or at least in our case the guy opened up the floor and did the work there was no way he would have been able even to take out the crystal ball to work out a price.In such matters common sense must apply and the relationship between you and the artisan (such as we have always paid him on the day the invoice arrived) comes into play. I do not think that 37 euros an hour is excessive when taken in the round and when you think what artisans in France have to pay before they live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 37 euro per hour is a reasonable rate, expected.The OP was quoting a bill of 500 euro for 6 hrs work. Somewhat different.80+euro an hour is far from normal or expected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jondeau Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Unfortunately you authorised somebody to carry out a repair without enquiring as to the cost........I have every sympathy with you.....nontheless, you are now stuck with the bill.It does seem very steep to me (as somebody who has worked in this field all his life) and I would not ever have charged that amount for such a job, but is it unreasonable?Only the courts could decide........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonrouge Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Of course Powerdesal the rates in Percy Le Chefresne are something else. Best wishes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonrouge Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Reasonable as in the English Law and as in the man on the top of the Clapham Omnibus are far removed from the French Legal System and thank goodness for that. Trying something on is another concept and which is prevalent both here in the Uk and probably in most other countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike.m Posted January 24, 2009 Author Share Posted January 24, 2009 Hello All , Many thanks for the feedback and it helps inform the chat which will ensue with le plommiere ; I am going to suggest that 300 euros is a more accurate price for the work and see how he responds . I guess that ultimately if he wants to play hardball i will have to pay but hopefully wiser counsel will prevail . Clearly I could not have asked for a devis but I assumed the rates for the previous work would have applied . I guess the lesson has to be to ask for an hourly/daily rate in advance of the repair ? Forewarned is forearmed . I'll post later with an outcome . M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancer Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Next time try calling out an emergency plumber from the pages jaunes you will find plenty as well as electricians, gas engineers and locksmiths under "dépannages urgents à domicile" (the key word here is "urgent" and try explaining to them that you consider €37 an hour or €175 per man day to be reasonable. A recent example, not me I am glad to say, locksmith called out in Amiens, drill out cylinder, open door and replace with €5 premeire prix one, total time on site less than one hour, max travel time in metroplole 1 hr aller retour, facture €450 ttc.If you look above that section in les pages jaunes there is a large section explaining whether a devis is required, if not what you should ask for and sign before agreeing work, your customer rights and the artisans obligations.It is all very skewed towards the consumer e.g. the breakdown guy has an obligation to succeed even though he may find a can of worms abandoned by the last bodger if not you can take him to a tribunal, if anything gets damaged during the repair (try digging up a tied floor without breaking a few eggs!) he must return it to its original state or pay you damages and interest, frankly I can see why artisans will not take on something unknown, most wont even return to their own work. I think it is totally reasonable to charge more for an emergency call out, look how long people usually have to wait to get works done, either the artisan is giving up his leasure time to assist or another client is being bumped.If you read the info in les pages jaunes you will see that you have no right to challenge the facture at this stage of the game, you could/should have asked for a written copy of the rates and prestations which he in turn has to abide by once you have signed it.Of course you could try your luck suggesting €300 but who ultimately pays the price, the artisan, the guy he may have subbed it to or future foreign clients? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gluestick Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Agree totally, JR.It is eminently reasonable to expect to pay over the top for emergency work when the artisan suffers what we call in the UK (on professional work) "Dislocation Costs".It is reasonable, again, for an artisan not to know what actual problems exist: and not to be able to estimate what work might be essential when pipework, feeds whatever is underground. Similarly, it would be impossible to accurately predict what materials were necessary.That said I would always demand a firm price quote per hour worked, emergency call-out charge and whether travel was to be charged too.Having had late last year a disagreement with an "Experte" - in this case a "Géometre", and having a detailed Devis signed both him and myself, after an extended exchange of correspondence (His junior man had failed dismally to carry out what he had contracted to do!), I eventually set up a meeting with the owner.We argued amicably (my French must be improving as he speaks no English whatsoever and I had to argue the case concerning surveying my land boundaries) and eventually reached a conclusion: I offered him 50% of the original fee and he accepted.Prior to this he was preparing to take the case for debt to the local Tribunal.So in the OP's case first step would seem to make an appointment with the firm's owner and argue the case for a reduction; robustly!He may well accept a reduced sum to avoid the cost and time in fighting his case legally.Worth a pop!PS. When I first saw the thread title, I thought if was an ad for a plumber called Bill![:D] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Trollope Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 [quote user="Punch"]Are you absolutely sure about that Nick ? I'm with GiantPanda on this one. As I have always understood it a devis for works estimated at over 150€ is obligatory . It's what my accountant has always told me. [/quote]Both me (and I presume), you, undertake "emergency" work, for with I charge 45€/hr or part thereof and I start the clock running when I get the 'phone call (ostensibly to cover my diesel costs).I tell the customer this when he/she calls (plus parts at trade + 30%). That is my devis. You will appreciate that a written devis is impossible when you have not seen the job and the customer rarely (read never IME) wants to wait whilst you prepare a devis - at 45€/hr in his living room! The law, according to my accountant allows this as long as everyone understands what they are getting into.It is wrong for the OPs plumber not to quote an hourly rate, but he should have asked. I'd bet he'd have done so in the UK! Plumbers and pelicans..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boiling a frog Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 [quote user="mike.m"]Hello All , Many thanks for the feedback and it helps inform the chat which will ensue with le plommiere ; I am going to suggest that 300 euros is a more accurate price for the work and see how he responds . I guess that ultimately if he wants to play hardball i will have to pay but hopefully wiser counsel will prevail . Clearly I could not have asked for a devis but I assumed the rates for the previous work would have applied . I guess the lesson has to be to ask for an hourly/daily rate in advance of the repair ? Forewarned is forearmed . I'll post later with an outcome . M.[/quote] Best of luck but remember you will need to find another plumber in the future, and you will aquire a reputation for being a ""difficult"" customer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancer Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 NickWhat you do seems very sensible and very reasonable, have a look at the info section above the depanneurs in les Pages Jaunes, it will confirm and expand apon what your accountant has told you, it is very informative but also scary for the artisan should you find yourself being called out by shall we say "a certain type of customer" it is better to be forewarned and hopefully also be able to identify this type before arriving or deciding to take the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suein56 Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 [quote user="J.R gone native"]... have a look at the info section above the depanneurs in les Pages Jaunes, it will confirm and expand upon what your accountant has told you, [/quote]From a client's point of view the info section you mention is most helpful. So thanks for that as I did not know of its existence.I was possibly 'ripped off' to a small degree by a plumber in that I paid 280 euros for an inset sink to be installed and connected to an existing water supply. The plumber spent 4.5 hours doing this work and it was beautifully and expertly executed. I had rung him on a Tuesday and he did the work on the Friday before going off on holiday. Newly arrived in France and not knowing what I know now I did not ask him for a devis or discuss the possible cost as I was delighted to get the (small) job done. Although I thought the price demanded was a tad high I would not have dreamt of paying him less than he asked. The fault was mine that I might have paid too much.Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iceni Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 The plumber spent 4.5 hrs doing your little job - add to that travelling time and the fact that there may not be another little job that he can do in what remains of the working day so you could well be paying for a full day's labour. Also what rate of TVA ?On Christmas Eve our boiler failed to ignite. Phoned at around 10.00 and man arrived mid-afternoon (his base is about 20 minutes away but I have no idea where he had been previously). Spent about 1.25 hours solving prob, checking and adjusting exhaust gas etc. Cost of 2 hrs @ €32 p.h. , €9 ish for a part and TVA @5.5%. Naturally I added a bit for him to have an after work pint which then meant 10 minutes sorting out small change so that boss got the correct amount and our man pocketed his bit. This would have been an ideal opportunity for the firm to have charged an outlandish price. Maybe because the man services several customers within the hamlet including my neighbour opposite or maybe he just expects a fair days work for a fair days pay.John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tj Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 Hiinteresting thread.....2 questions,it is still unclear if there were two men or just one, since you reference ' when they arrived' ?What would you have done if he had quoted the same price in advance, bearing in mind this was an emergency situation for you, and your number one priority was to have the leak fixed,,,,,just curious as to whether you would have agreed ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike.m Posted January 26, 2009 Author Share Posted January 26, 2009 Hi , Just to clarify , 'they" were the owner who dropped off his young salaire at nine , explained the job and returned at three to pick him up .Would I have accepted the price at the outset ? Absolutely , but its a bit of an empty question because no-one would have offered a fixed price without knowing how much concrete needed to be excavated . In truth I count myself lucky . The real question is would have I accepted an estimate of 40 an hour (yes, I knew the company and its work ) ; 80 euro an hour , no . The bill incidentally was not factured per hour but as a global sum . I think my disappointment is that I feel as a customer who had spent a several thousand euros with them over the summer I expected to be treated absolutely fairly . Had I called out an unknown artisan I would have been careful to discuss price in advance . Mulling over what to do now I'm also very aware of the comment about the price of acquiring a reputation as a difficult customer .These are the guys who will have to come out and deal with any guarantee problems with the new boiler and ballon they installed . My ego says complain , my head says bite the bullet and pay the price of "education ". Thanks for the advice ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancer Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 MikeI am sure that you will do the right thing as you have not acted precipitously, have sought advice and reflected on it, your final comments are very wise, not everything can be measured by money.However since most of the thread has been about money, or to be precise an hourly rate I would like to add one thing and that is to try and see things from the artisans point of view (by necessity he must measure things in monetary terms).On your side you want to be treated fairly after spending several thousand euros with him, from his side €1400 for 8 man days (which to me are 8 hours) equals a rate of less than €22 per hour and I bet that was TTC, in reality that would not even have been enough to cover his employees wages, cotisations and his insurances and other overheads during for that period, the artisan probably gave his time for free. Had it been an unknown depanneur arrive IMO you would have been very lucky to have got away with as little as you paid, I cited the example of the locksmith charging €450 to drill out and change a €5 euro cylinder, my girlfriend has just confirmed that she was actually shafted for €500 3 years ago. (my god that sounds awfull [:)]) I think compared to what you would have paid a depanneur, and remember another "normal" artisan is highly unlikely to have responded, you actually profitted from your previous relation with your plumber. I doubt that he viewed it as payback time.EdittedMike have you changed your original post? I have just read that "when they arrived it was a new face that was running the business", I'm sure that you didnt mention that before, it puts things in a completely different perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Âme Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 Mike, you could start negotiations by asking for the facture to be itemised. Not an unreasonable request and it could put things in a whole new light for both parties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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