3 phase again sorry

[Dave&Olive]

hi

stage 1 off renovation work now done ,time now to think about re-wire . EdF has said no to single phase so now need to buy a distribution board ( consumer unit ) for tri phase , question is they are all sealed up in the brico depots and I need one with 4 buzz bars 1 for each phase and 1 for neutral so are there special ones for tri phase

hope this makes science dave

[La Guerriere]

There should be four terminals on the EDF disjoncteur de branchement. These will be neutral and three phases L1, L2 and L3.

I don't suppose you will want any actual three-phase equipment, so you can go straight to mono.

I would suggest that a three row tableau would suffice. Run each row from a separate phase, so 1st row = neutral and L1, 2nd row = neutral and L2, 3rd row = neutral and L3. Each row on the tableau is now effectively in mono.

Each row should start with an ID (interrupteur differential 30mA) of suitable rating probably 40A. In France these are all double pole so phase and neutral go through, there is no separate neutral bus as UK consumer unit. Then you put in disjoncteurs (double pole MCBs) on the rail fed from each ID to suit your needs. Try to balance the loads on the three rails so that the normal running current is about the same and the balance in neutral is minimised.

Send me an email and I can send you schematic of the above.

Jim (50 et Oxfordshire)

 

[Nick Trollope]

[quote]There should be four terminals on the EDF disjoncteur de branchement. These will be neutral and three phases L1, L2 and L3. I don't suppose you will want any actual three-phase equipment, so you can ...[/quote]

Sorry, but I'm not sure that you can do this.

I believe that you must have a single 3-phase ID, first (rather than 3 seperate ones). Otherwise you could have the dangerous situation of 1 phase off, 2 phases on....

Thereafter, 3 rows of DD's is a good idea.

 

[La Guerriere]

No, seems that if you have the EDF disnjoncteur de branchement in tri, then the interruptuers differentiels can be mono as per normal. I've found the schematic I wanted and will send to you both.

Jim

 

[La Guerriere]

Dave and Olive, email me and I can send schematic.

Jim

[Gyn_Paul]

Sorry, can I throw a spanner into the works:

If you have a high demand for hot water, you might want to think about a tri-phase chauffeau. It would be one less high load item to have to worry about unbalancing the phases.

Ditto cooker if you are thinking of something huge and semi industrial.

(then you really would need a special 3-ph DD to suppy these items.)

 

paul

[Dave&Olive]

ok thanks for replys

                     there will be no cookers ( ovens on the supply) now cooking on gaz (bottles) hot water tank is universal can be wired 3 or single phase so no problem there. But because I have got to keep 3 phase some of the machines I use can be wired up for 3 phase ie with a 5 pin plug 3 phase nut and earth, so would like to keep a 3 and 4 phase option open ( ie 3 phase and earth) and 3 +nut + earth.

                        so thanks but what board do I need ?

                                     dave

                            or now digga Dave

 

ps 9kw 15amps down each phase

pps sorry hot water can be wired 2 phase and earth .

will accept a boll^"£ing on some off my answers to a other posting ( never heard off 2 or 4 phase ) french wiring

[Nick Trollope]

Having taken on board (ha ha) Jim's comments, I still think that a single 3ph DD is the right route for you. Best to go and buy the bits - an empty 3-row Tableau and all the DD's & ID's you need.

BTW, there is no such thing as 2 or 4-phase. You can use 2 phases of a 3-ph supply to 1 piece of gear, but it is unlikely.

Small point, 3-phase electricity is bloody dangerous. If you are worried about wiring it, ask an electrician!

 

[Gyn_Paul]

[quote]Having taken on board (ha ha) Jim's comments, I still think that a single 3ph DD is the right route for you. Best to go and buy the bits - an empty 3-row Tableau and all the DD's & ID's you need. ...[/quote]

"....You can use 2 phases of a 3-ph supply to 1 piece of gear..."

Given that the phases are 120^o apart, what is the pd between the two?  and what is it between the combination and neutral ?

(just interested, there won't be a quiz next period, and there are no prizes!)

paul

 

 

[La Guerriere]

I think the way this is going you'll need a three row tableau for the mono supply for your three individual phases, and probably a separate single row for your three-phase stuff.

The schematic still, I think, applies. You will probably find that you can get four pole (tetrapolaire) DD's at specialist leccy shops but I expect they are going to cost.

As noted, three phase stuff is rather dangerous, and can, to use a free translation of a French phrase "knock the varnish off yer portrait". Even if you are confident with it, proceed very carefully, get a good multimeter, check everything diligently, and don't ever ever ever do anything to the board without switching off at the EDF D de B.

Bon weekend !

 

 

 

 

[La Guerriere]

Aha, somebody has just started a thread on "tableau en tri" over on www.cyberbricoleur.com

This will probably worth watching: the French electricians will doubtless argue about this one for a while......

Jim

[Gyn_Paul]

Quel forum? I can't find it on 'electricite'

paul

 

 

[La Guerriere]

Yes, somebody put up the question subject title "aide tableau en triphase". Let it cook for a while, and somebody will answer. The resident expert seems to be a guy called Bruno who normally has all the answers.

Thinking further about part of the tableau to deal with 3-phase, the minimum for one three-phase circuits with 1 4-pole interrupteur differential (which handles the earth leakage), connected to one 4-pole disjoncteur divisionaire which handles overload protection. Each unit takes up 4 slots on the standard DIN rail. So you could get two three phase circuits (12 slots) on a standard tableau which has a nominal width of 13 slots.

Dave'n'Olive, would that work for you ?

Jim (50 et Oxfordshire)

 

 

[Dave&Olive]

thanks for your replies

            think I will go for a combination of 2 answers. does this sound o.k. fit a 3 row box for single phase and if I do need to utilise 3 phase I will loop the tails over to a seperate box just for tri phase use , sound o.k. or what.

            in reguards to safety ....... you cannot smell it .....you cannot see it ..you cannot hear it ........ BUT IT KILLS......

         my wife wil not be a widow

             thanks again dave

           if anyone local needs a mini digger I just do it for pin money ........that will cause a stink

[La Guerriere]

A last few hints'n'tips:

a) Theoretically one should only have one connection on each of the outlet terminals of the EDF disjoncteur, so take a big wire from each terminal to the bornes on your three-phase tableau.

b) Thereafter run neutral and separate phase to each row of your three row mono tableau. The standard colour coding should be: blue for neutral, and for the phases use maroon, red and black. Thus there should never be a mix of phase colours on any single row of the mono part of the tableau. Green / yellow is as normal reserved for earth.

Good luck

Jim

 

[Anton Redman]

Much to surprise Brico Depot do stock a 'tetraPolaire 30ma Legrand Interupter Differential' 25 amp Ac at Euros 117.57 and 40 amp at 145.09

[Julie & Steve]

May I suggest that you heed the danger warnings already mentioned in this thread. We're talking in excess of 400 volts here and its not for learning or experimenting with. I don't know what the French regulations, customs and practices are but in the UK, a single 4 pole (3 Phase and neutral) RCD device on the incomer would generally be the most prudent and then either distributing in one three phase board or 3 single phase boards with individual front end devices to suit the needs of the installation, but there are a multitude of other issues that need consideration.

It is debatable if rewiring is a DIY job at 230v single phase. Indeed, DIY wiring is now illegal in the UK without recognised approval and even then, additional approval is required for 3 phase work. I would say that unless you really know what you are doing, leave three phase to the experts. 400v kills just as effectively in France as it does in the UK!

 

Steve  

[VJ]

3 Phase and Neutral supply

As explained by others this is dangerous and you need to be careful

Voltage between phases is 400 volts/420 volts depending where you are

The correct way is to go through a 3 phase and neutral Isolator which you can use to isolate the complete system, it is not a good idea to have the main isolation as 3 of single phase units

You can by a D Board with the three phase and neutral isolator fitted and then the 3 phase and neutral bus bar line come out from there. This enables you to

just clip the 3 phase or mono phase circuit breakers as you wish

You can fir RCBO units which combine overload and earth protection for each circuit, or you can fit the earth protection RCB at the start of the single phase line

When running a 3 phase line out, use a linked 3 phase circuit breaker which isolates all phases in the event of a fault

Never put socket outlets or lights that are on different phases within 2-0 metres of each other or better still only have one phase feeding outlets of any sort in a room as 400 volts remember exists between outlet

Just as an extra point when running single phase sockets (pris) as a radial , that is looped in line, run in a second earth wire from the furthest one back to the consumer unit, this means if there is a break in the earth wire , you still have the return to keep the sockets earthed

If you need more info go to the local electrical wholsaler (not DIY Shop)and go through it with them,

Hope this is of some help

[Choochoo]

Hi everybody

I recently took the decision to change over from tri-phase to mono-phase. A visit was made by EDF to check out things and one of the questions he asked was does your supply sometimes trip out when you switch on two power hungry items. I replied, yes, funny you should say that, it does, and the lights flicker when the kettle or similar switches on or off. He then said this means a switch to monphase would be a good idea and duly booked a visit for the work to be done. Our place used to be a large farm where tri-phase was needed,but unnecessary now. I dont like the idea of 400 volt potentials lying around anyway. A 240 volt shock I would likely survive but 400 volts, no way.

Regards to all

 

John (not Sue - who is in UK at the moment)

[Roz]

Hi, I'm reading posts with reference to tri-phase as I'm trying to understand why we have it... Our property also used to be a working farm, but had already been modernised and renovated by the previous (French) owners. We have underfloor heating in three rooms but we only ever have the middle one switched on,  and also two big water heaters at each end of the house, one of which is now turned off.  I have discovered that we are paying around 92 euros abonnement on each facture, compared with our friend's 39 euros . They have a single phase supply, which is presumably what makes the difference?  We occasionally get trip-outs and dimming lights and I thought this would be a reason that Soreigies would suggest that we would NOT be able to change to single phase, but the previous post suggests the opposite is true. As our annual electricity bills were exceeding 2,000 euros - (and we also have to buy/burn wood in order to heat the upstairs in the evenings via insert with ducts)  I was thinking about approaching Soreigies about switching to single phase.. if anyone can throw some light on this [I][:)] I'd be really grateful!

[Nick Trollope]

Hmmmm..... Thought we put this to bed 4 years ago!

You are 3 phase because your property was a farm - it was normal (still is for farms). And you haven't asked to change.

You are paying a different standing charge because you have a different tariff from your neighbours. From EDF at least, the costs are the same for 1 and 3 phase.

The best people to ask about changing are EDF (or your supplier). You sound like a heavy user of power, so don't assume that you will be able to change to mono (this is what the original thread was about IIRC).