Renovation costs and heating

[canard]

Hi, not posted on the forum much just got our devis through to renovate our house and thought I'd run it past you, both to check the prices and for anyone else looking for a guide to renovation costs.

Our Stone farmhouse is in the Lot et Garonne and has a new roof but earth floors, holes in the stone walls and animals running riot. we've 2 floors of 120 m2 each.

Total to renovate, install heating, water and electricity and repoint/render inside only is 200,000 euros.

details-

making a concrete slab 120m2                 4,500 euro

making 5 doorways in the stone walls        4300 euros

laying floor of poplar on first floor              4800 euros

installing ceiling and insulating  35m2          2000 euros

scrape out joints and repointing  400m2   20000 euros

supply and fit 10 doors of exotic wood      3800 euros

Tile floor (not including tiles)                      5340 euros

supply and fit solid oak floor 90 m2           8100 euros

supply and fit heat pump, 8 radiators and 120 m2 of underfloor heating       35 000 euros

Electrical wiring       15000 euros

Happy to provide more details and I'd love to hear your comments.

Many Thanks.

[powerdesal]

[quote user="canard"]Hi, not posted on the forum much just got our devis through to renovate our house and thought I'd run it past you, both to check the prices and for anyone else looking for a guide to renovation costs.

Our Stone farmhouse is in the Lot et Garonne and has a new roof but earth floors, holes in the stone walls and animals running riot. we've 2 floors of 120 m2 each.

Total to renovate, install heating, water and electricity and repoint/render inside only is 200,000 euros.

details-

making a concrete slab 120m2                 4,500 euro

making 5 doorways in the stone walls        4300 euros

laying floor of poplar on first floor              4800 euros

installing ceiling and insulating  35m2          2000 euros

scrape out joints and repointing  400m2   20000 euros

supply and fit 10 doors of exotic wood      3800 euros

Tile floor (not including tiles)                      5340 euros

supply and fit solid oak floor 90 m2           8100 euros

supply and fit heat pump, 8 radiators and 120 m2 of underfloor heating       35 000 m2

Electrical wiring       15000 euros

Happy to provide more details and I'd love to hear your comments.

Many Thanks.

[/quote]

Congratulations, not on the Devis, I cant comment on that, but rather on your ability to refer to  Euro 200,000 as ''only'' [:(]

[mint]

Steve, pay attention!  Canard said "repoint/render inside only is 200,000 euros".

That is for re-pointing or rendering on the inside and doesn't include, for example, dividing up the space for rooms, etc.

Still, I reckon Canard isn't short of a euro or two either ..................[:D]

[Anton Redman]

Without line by line from the Devis it is very difficult to comment. In particular are prices including or excluding TVA and at which rate. To take one example if the repointing involves taking out cement based render 8 metres in the air it is one problem and price if it is lime based and easy access it is another. None of the prices seemed off the planet. Loads of questions like why only such as small amount of ceiling ? Are the electrics in gaine( flexiable condoit) buried carefully in the stone work or are they surface mounted in rigid conduit etc etc. Suggest have a look through he links below. The electrics for instance actually look fairly cheap to me.

 

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/2/1652400/ShowPost.aspx#1652400

 

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/1168853/ShowPost.aspx

 

http://www.francethisway.com/renovation/cost.html

 

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/2/1166636/ShowPost.aspx#1166636

 

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/1144828/ShowPost.aspx

 

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/959310/ShowPost.aspx

 

[canard]

Lol...

The 'only' was refering to the repointing inside and not outside!

We took the decision to buy a rundown property and get a builder in rather than buy a house that was already complete but in someone else's style.

Overall I don't think it's an unrealistic budget for a main home of 200m2. and I certainly am short of a few bob (or will be after this!)

That's why I'd appreciate any comments on the works.

[canard]

Anton, thanks for the response. electrics are in 'gaines' hidden in stonework or 'doublage' (plasterboard false wall).

Only part of the ceiling/insulation needs redoing and that's due to loir/fouine damage.

Toatl price and electrics include TVA at 5.5%. Individual items from devis are not including TVA.

[RicandJo]

WOW - 35 thousand square metres of electrical wiring.

[Nick Trollope]

Your renovation is costing about 1000€ per square meter. Not bad.

You could get another devis perhaps?

[Poolguy]

If you've got the chance to use underfloor heat distribution then why not make a component of that heating spec an evacuated tube Solar System . You'll save a lot of money over its life time (indefinate) and the heat pumps can be smaller spec and not work so hard(therfore a longer life-)

Solar works for heating as well as hot water, its just a question of the willingness to consider and design it into a project like this.

Electricity prices are rising by 20% in the next 3 years and will continue upward so if you Electric only then you'll pay and pay and pay. So heat you house by the sun, last I heard the price is still 'nothing' and will continue so for the forseable future.

 

Andrew

 

 

[Le Plombier]

Assuming the heating you describe is geothermie with ground loops then the price is around what you should expect to pay

Le Plombier

[canard]

alas not. ground is very rocky so our builder (well his plumber) recommends the air source option.

I understand you don't favour this option?

[Nick Trollope]

Then forget it - aerothermal heating (even for 35K) is marginal. Consider what Poolguy suggests, or an alternative renewable fuel.

[Le Plombier]

Expensive for aerothermie

Suitable for new build highly insulated house only, for an older property normally the heat pump will not deliver sufficient heat and you will need a supplementary heat source

Le Plombier

[Benjamin]

Poolguy

I've lifted part of your posting and put it into the thread "Electricity price rise much higher for those with Tempo and plein..." in the section The Complete French Post Bag as my question seems more appropriate there. Can you have a look please?

[Dave&Olive]

hi ok

           1000 euro m2 is a bit steep unless it is really rough  650 - 1000 is normally about it .. as for heating  I would just  put  in the pipe work for a wet system ( under floor )  and nothing else yet ....  In stall  a couple of wood burners for now ,and in 3 years fit a ecosystem and get  75 %  back from the French government

                          Dave

[canard]

Thanks for all your replies.

Dave, it is a bit rough and we're hoping (naively) that it's a realistic estimate.

I'm not sure I fancy living in the house for 3 years before getting the heating commisioned. Is the 3 years you mention a proviso for the 75% rebate? I know nothing of french government incentives.

Poolguy, I hadn't considered solar, mainly because we're relying on the builders advice and he hadn't mentioned it. Do you have any idea how much your proposal might add to the overall cost? We're pretty maxed out on our budget at the moment.

Nick Trollope and Le Plombiere, I really value your comments because the heating system is probably the most contentious item on the devis and it's so important to get right.

As a lay person my first instinct is to trust the expert (our plumber) then research as much as I can so if I need to debate with him I have all the facts. He has only recently started using the aerothermie system because in his opinion it hasn't been up to the task till now.

Does your experience of these system cover the most up to date installations?

A quick search discovered this write up from a happy owner of an aerothermie system (in the UK).

 http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=702257

how does the experience of this person differ to yours?

The Pompe a Chaleur specified in our devis is an AIRMAT CRI 150-140 which I think is 18Kw  cop 3.85    @ 11,000euros

also on the devis for the heating is

Kit Vanne 3 voies        @    288

liaisons frigo tube cuivre isole @ 1200

filtre eau Judo circuit chauffage heifi-top @     400

circulateur chauffage     @        200

circulateur Salmson chauffage simple   @  160

plus underfloor heating  pipes etc   @   7,300  for 120 m2

and 8 radiators       @        6000

fitting is another  4000

all above is in euros excluding TVA and I've omitted various sundries less than 100 euros.

The plan is to have a chauffe-eau for hot water. I'd value any opinions as to why exactly this will not keep us warm enough and any changes we should make.

[Le Plombier]

If the aerothermie heat pump is charged with co2 as a refrigerant you might have a chance but if normal refrigerant is used you will probably have a problem

Refrigerants in common use only are effective to minus 7C air temperature and then the performance really drops off so you do not get so much heat generated

With co2 the performance does not drop off until you reach temperatures of minus 28C and therefore they are effective in the typical French winter, but I doubt you would get ine for 11000 euros, they are expensive

You would be better to spend the extra for boreholes and use ground water or geothermic probes, heat recovered this way is normally between 12C up to as high as 18C and varies only a few degrees through the year

Given the kind of money you are investing you should go the extra mile and get something that is guaranteed to work and provide all your hot water as well

Whilst boreholes are expensive they are cheaper when drilled through rock, believe me they are

Le Plombier

[Le Plombier]

I would add that you need a dam sight more than 18kW to heat a 240m2 house

Le Plombier

[Anton Redman]

Must depend where you are, how well the house is insulated and how it is orientated versus the sun ?

[canard]

Thanks for your quick response. The Pompe a chaleur in question doesn't use co2. the airmat website says R410A coolant but does say it works down to -20.

Is there an online reference as to how much power output you need per square metre or more information about required spec from an aerothermie system?

Surely some of them must work otherwise they wouldn't sell?

How much extra do you think it might cost to install geothermie?

[Poolguy]

Canard

Solar heating systems rely on a considerable storage vessle, so that you can collect energy when its available and use it later as you want it. So its big (as big as you can afford), and well insulated, you can connect any other heat source to it as well.

As far as the solar component is concerned, add as many panels as you like, start with a few if you want, add more later, or create a whole system from the off. Point is, that once you've bought it and installed it, then its free for life (virtually).

Unlike the other systems you are contemplating, solar has no moving parts, (except for a small circulating pump worth about €100). So in ten years, it works the same as when it was new, that is definately not the case for the other electric machine based systems which will need to be replaced at some stage - so you pay all over again as well as in the mean time, you pay.

So the budget can be of your own design, and you can put a secondary system in to cope with the time when there is just not enough solar radiation to be had - say woodchip gasification. Or it could be anything that you prefer, but it certainly doesn't have to do much work because the solar is coping for 90% of the year.

Its pretty simple, you can see what I mean with my system is seen here. www.poolguyenergy.com, its the graphs day by day since it went in.

Hope that make the point clearer, as there are not to many folk that know about this and that's a shame because its worth a look.

Andrew

 

 

[Le Plombier]

I might work to minus 20C but ask them how many kW it will deliver at minus 20C and see what they say to that

I will not be 18kW, that's for sure

The only aerothermie systems that I have seen that work are in highly insulated new builds, I can show you a few horror stories where they are installed in older buildings

With co2 it is possible as you can get water at 65C and performance down to circa minus 28C, R410A will drop off in performance from just below freezing and significantly below minus 7C

Le Plombier

[canard]

Hi Le Plombier, I've been looking forward to your response.

How much 'output' do you think I need for 120 m2 UFH downstairs and 8 rads (100 m2) upstairs? We have a large fire upstairs too.

What would you do? We have enough land for geothermie but it's very rocky. How much approx would it cost us to a) drill bore holes for collectors or b) dig down a large enough area for the collectors ?

Would you favour a fossil fuel or wood burning source of heat?

I realise it's very difficult for you to put a price on these things not knowing the property but I would take any estimate you give as a complete approximation.

And thanks for going through this with me as I can see you have responded many times on similar topics.

Poolguy/Andrew, thanks for your points too. My main concern now is becoming up front costs. Am I right in thinking to buy enough equipement to heat 90% of the house (and supply hot water) with a solar system would cost significantly more than £20,000*? I would like to use solar at some stage in the future but I can't see our budget stretching to incorporate that for at least 10 years.

*Including solar panels, storage tank and alternative system to cope with cloudy days but not including the UFH or radiators.

[Thebiga]

Also its ok shelling out on this solar stuff and say saving a good deal over 20 years, But then I heard that around twenty years you would have to replace the panels or tubes, Is this correct? Or if not how long do they last as you dont want to say to yourself that it cost £20,000 and over 20 years I saved £20,000 only to have to pay out again. Just a thought.

[Poolguy]

Canard

That sort of sum will buy a ver nice system indeed, but as I said you don't have to spend it all at once if you dont want too - start modest and add to it as you find out what you need for where you live.

The heat delivery system is required no matter what heat source you choose, so lets not count that for the moment.

I cannot give you a budget only a qualified installer can do that after a survey of your house. But to give you a yardstick my house is 250m2 and my system cost a great deal less than you have budgeted.

BIG A

Who ever has been tell you about solar panels doesn't know enough to be worth the listening too. Solar panels are made of Glass, copper, stainless steel, I can't see anything there that couldn't last for the rest of my lifetime (I hope its more than 20 years), like I said the only moving part is a circulator!!!!! Where's the problem in believing?

Andrew