Fosses revisited: "compact" systems

[mint]

Apologies in advance and I agree, this isn't the most rivetting of Forum topics.........

Pachapapa, if you are out there, could you please take a look at this:

www.adis-exhen.com 

If anyone else is au fait with this subject, please feel free to pitch in.

The problem with the property is that land is restricted, the area is low-lying and the water-table is high.

The present owner has had this system "approved" by the local SPANC chappie. 

What I want to know is, all else being OK, is it advisable to buy the property IF I can get written confirmation that the system will be approved?

[mint]

Ok, so it's a boring (boring as in digging too, so pun intended!) subject and so no one's heard of this particular system but has anyone put in a similar, compact system and can give me their opinion?

Please...........?

[pachapapa]

Q1 property is low lying,does that mean it is liable to flooding? The local DDE will have maps showing "zones inondables".

Q2 commune should have a map showing within the general ANC zone the definition of sub-zones giving the method of ANC required.

These zones take into account bedrock, permeability, depth to bedrock, etc. The plans if complete will be at your local mairie.

As far as I know the list of approved µSTEPs has still not been released; this is hardly surprising as SPANCs throughout france were given until the 15th Sept to present their opinions and recommendations.

The day to day movement of the SPANC reglamentation can be followed at the following site.

http://www.spanc29.net/fourm/index.php

The following link gives more detailed thread on he progress of the Arrêté of 2009,

http://www.spanc29.net/forum/index.php?board=34.0

The following link gives some info on the Vodalys installation.

http://www.hellopro.fr/Station-d-epuration-vodalys-de-4-a-2000-habitants-2007656-804634-produit.html

The following link gives a diagramatic animation of the beast itself.

http://www.adis-exhen.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=43&Itemid=12

[mint]

Pachapapa, that has got to be the most comprehensive answer anyone's ever had on a single topic on the Forum![:D]

Many, many thanks indeed.  When I can get hold of the OH, we will go through your links carefully and make relevant notes before we do anything else.

You have been so very sympa and I am most grateful.

[mint]

Pacha, we have now looked at the links and OH is dead impressed with the info you have provided.

One area of doubt he has is this:  (please bear with me whilst I describe it)[:)]

The building is a long, narrow structure with an existing inadequate fosse very near to one end.

The floor level is virtually at surrounding ground level.  Existing pipe gradients are very flat but appear to be of self-cleansing gradients.

Is there a possibility that the tank might "pop up" if empty and cause problems with the discharge from the existing pipes?  The water table is currently about 1 metre below ground level.

Is the effluent from the system pumped up to allow for a fall into a ditch alongside the public rural highway (about 3 metres away)?

Are we right in thinking that we won't need a conventional filtration area?

Apologies for picking your brains in this manner but, you know, hundreds of thousands of euros could depend on your answer?[I]

 

 

[mint]

Please excuse me, Forum Members, for bumping up my own thread yet again:  I'm not normally so ill-mannered.

But we are due to pay our second visit to the property in question and it would be very helpful to have some information from those who know about these things.

Also, I am trying to attract Pachapapa's attention![:D]

Hi, Pacha, over hhhhheeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrreeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![Www]

[pachapapa]

The floor level is virtually at surrounding ground level.  Existing pipe gradients are very flat but appear to be of self-cleansing gradients.

Water will flow at 1/100 gradient without trouble, waste pipes rarely installed at steeper than 3/100, the solid material is moved with the plug of water wnen flushing W.C.

There should be now problem with slope.

Is there a possibility that the tank might "pop up" if empty and cause problems with the discharge from the existing pipes?  The water table is currently about 1 metre below ground level.

Almost impossible the fosse tank will be firmly embedded in the ground by now, probably need a crane to lift it out, pipes will have been connected subsequent to settling.

The water table is probably at a high point after winter rain and short of "flooding" unlikely to rise further. You still haven't replied on possibility of flooding....if it is in a designated

zone inondable you'll have problems getting planning for a bird table.[:)]

Is the effluent from the system pumped up to allow for a fall into a ditch alongside the public rural highway (about 3 metres away)?

The final discharge from the system is called an "exutoire", you are lucky having a public ditch as the commune is almost obliged to accept the discharge as long as it complies with cleanliness requirements.A pump should be avoided if possible and the discharge should be allowed to flow by gravity to the ditch, a slope of 1/100 is quite sufficient.

Are we right in thinking that we won't need a conventional filtration area?

No $ 64,000 answer available as yet no one knows how it will turn out, to date anything other than the conventional sandbed filter has been allowed, the rest of the *STEP stuff requiring a Prefectural Permission; there has always been the requirement that necessity decided on anything different. But smallness of area is a point in favour, so the too small for a filter bed is a trump card.

Be wary of any representations as to µSTEPs already having approval; the french have made this awkward to obtain. Do insist on knowing the full details of the "agrément" verse and chapter in the Journal Officiel.

 

 

[pachapapa]

Additional background to normes européen and regalamentation francaise.

Pourquoi la France fixe-t-elle des prescriptions techniques sur les produits marqués CE alors que la norme NF EN 12566-3 existe et est d’application obligatoire?

Il faut rappeler tout d’abord que la norme et la réglementation n’ont pas le même champ d’application : la norme visant les produits et la réglementation visant les ouvrages. A noter que le caractère obligatoire de la norme s’impose seulement aux fabricants.

D’autre part, la directive relative aux produits de construction permet aux Etats Membres de fixer des règles techniques et de définir des modalités d’intégration des produits dans les ouvrages. La norme prévoit par ailleurs que des combinaisons peuvent être différentes au niveau national et prévoit de compléter ces dispositifs de traitement par d’autres en vue des respecter les exigences épuratoires au niveau national.

Le respect de la norme est une condition nécessaire pour respecter les exigences essentielles de la DPC mais pas suffisante pour respecter les exigences épuratoires de la réglementation. En effet, cette norme ne fixe aucune obligation en matière de performance épuratoire. Considérant que 20% de la population française est concernée par l’ANC, les autorités françaises ont souhaité fixer des performances épuratoires nationales atteignables, proportionnées. Le protocole du marquage CE ne permet d’attester que les performances épuratoires déclarées par le fabricant, et non celles fixées par la réglementation nationale. C’est pourquoi l’arrêté du 7 septembre 2009 prévoit une procédure d’évaluation simplifiée de ces produits, basée exclusivement sur l’examen des résultats d’essai obtenus dans le cadre du marquage CE permettant de vérifier que les exigences épuratoires nationales sont respectées. Dans le cas contraire, le produit doit être compéter par un dispositif complémentaire permettant de s’assurer que l’installation (ou ouvrage) respecte les exigences nationales.

[pachapapa]

Please find below a sort of GPS ViaMichelin guide to the intricacies of administrative "agrémenting". [:D]

Fiche n° 7 : procédure d’évaluation des installations d’assainissement non collectif : procédure administrative

Afin d’informer les opérateurs économiques, les consommateurs mais également les autres acteurs de l’assainissement non collectif, l’arrêté relatif aux prescriptions techniques du 7 septembre 2009 précise la procédure administrative relative à l’agrément d’un dispositif de traitement ainsi que la validation et l’interprétation des résultats.

Procédure administrative de demande d’agrément

Sollicitation, par l’opérateur économique, de l’agrément d’un dispositif de traitement :

Dépôt du dossier de demande d’agrément du dispositif de traitement après des organismes notifiés (contenu précisé en annexe de l’arrêté)

10 jours

Organisme notifié (CERIB, CSTB) envoie un accusé de réception à l’opérateur attestant de la complétude du dossier ou une lettre recommandé demandant de compléter le dossier en précisant les éléments manquants

30 jours

Opérateur économique complète son dossier

20 jours

Organisme notifié atteste de la complétude du dossier (sinon le dossier est caduque)

30 jours (procédure simplifiée) 12 mois

(procédure sur plateforme)

Organisme notifié remet son avis motivé aux ministères en charge de l’écologie et de la santé accompagné d’un rapport technique comportant une fiche technique descriptive

2 mois

Les ministères statuent sur la demande d’agrément et adressent à l’opérateur économique un courrier officiel comportant un numéro d’agrément et une fiche technique descriptive

Publication au JO de la liste des dispositifs de traitement agréés accompagnés de leur fiche descriptive

A noter que les dispositifs de traitement déjà autorisés au titre de l’arrêté du 6 mai 1996 modifié en 2003 peuvent faire l’objet d’évolution des caractéristiques techniques et de conditions de mise en oeuvre. L’opérateur économique, le cas échéant, en informe l’organisme notifié qui évalue si ces modifications sont de nature à remettre en cause le respect des prescriptions techniques.

[mint]

Pacha, a thousand thanks.  Yes, I do understand the situation now.  Don't yet know about the flooding but will be paying a visit to the site very soon, perhaps next week.

Lovely, deep, public ditch alongside and, if the system is definitely "sans arome" as claimed by the manufacturer, then we're in business!

We have had better and more information from you than from any other source and we can't thank you enough..........

[Jo]

[quote user="sweet 17"]

Also, I am trying to attract Pachapapa's attention![:D]

Hi, Pacha, over hhhhheeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrreeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![Www]

[/quote]

Yep, that worked[:D][:D][:D]

[mint]

Oh dear [:$]

[pachapapa]

Hi there!

Watching Hamburg V Eindhoven so no time to stop; but with half a left eye on SPANC 29 there is a post today with reference to µSTEPS.

The CSTB have 6 applications for agrément due out of the box now now. The next stage to the Minister and ultimately the JO; assuming the CSTB give them all the all clear; no guarantee of that.

http://www.cstb.fr/actualites/webzine/editions/edition-du-12-fevrier-2010/assainissement-non-collectif-premiers-dossiers-dagrement.html

[mint]

Pacha, seems like there is a lot of news but not much information?[;-)]

[pachapapa]

True the SPANC community have been in a state of limbo since 7th Sept 09.

But hopefully that will change in the spring.

Perhaps the **** will hit the fan![:)]

[mint]

[quote user="pachapapa"]

Perhaps the **** will hit the fan![:)]

[/quote]

[:D] Awfully smelly so perhaps it's best to stay clear?