Department71 Posted October 22, 2010 Share Posted October 22, 2010 We are expecting the SPANC people early November,and we will still be in France then. I remember reading somewhere that if the Fosse is less the 10 metres from the house a grease filter is not needed. As we don't have a grease filter I am expecting a problem with the inspection, anyone who is in the same position as me, I would appreciate a bit of feedback.Would also appreciate any info from someone who is up to speed with the French regs maybe with a link to the French site.CheersSteve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachapapa Posted October 22, 2010 Share Posted October 22, 2010 I am not in the same position as you.But the arrêté of Oct 2009 only recommends a grease trap when the distance is over 10 metres, it is an option. The SPANC inspection results will depend on the nature of your installation and a rehabilitation may be in order. A "bac dégraisseur" is a positive element for the FTE and the FàSD."Autres dispositifs visés aux articles 4 et 13Dispositif de rétention des graisses (bac dégraisseur).Le bac dégraisseur est destiné à la rétention des matières solides, graisses et huiles contenues dans les eauxménagères.Ce dispositif n’est pas conseillé sauf si la longueur des canalisations entre la sortie de l’habitation et ledispositif de prétraitement est supérieure à 10 mètres.Le bac dégraisseur et les dispositifs d’arrivée et de sortie des eaux doivent être conçus de manière à éviter laremise en suspension et l’entraînement des matières grasses et des solides dont le dispositif a réalisé laséparation.Le volume utile des bacs, volume offert au liquide et aux matières retenues en dessous de l’orifice de sortie,doit être au moins égal à 200 litres pour la desserte d’une cuisine ; dans l’hypothèse où toutes les eauxménagères transitent par le bac dégraisseur, celui-ci doit avoir un volume au moins égal à 500 litres. Le bacdégraisseur peut être remplacé par la fosse septique." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachapapa Posted October 22, 2010 Share Posted October 22, 2010 Do you know how far your Fosse is from the house?Is it a Fosse toutes eaux?Often gives a good idea of the "vintage"; DTU XP 64-1 of 2007 was not more than 10 metres, whilst the earlier DTU 64-1 of 1998 was not less than 5 metres.Then again IF your toilet water are separate from washing water, then it is a fair bit longer in the tooth.In principle a SPANC inspection should only look for compliance with the state of the art DTU at the time of construction. But that needs to be taken with a pragmatic grain of salt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Department71 Posted November 23, 2010 Author Share Posted November 23, 2010 OK back in the UK and can now use this forum properly ( its a pain sitting in Mc Do doing e-mails etc, using it more to surf is nearly impossible)Pachpapa,, the Fosse is about 2 metres from the house and is a toutes eaux. 3000 ltrsWe had the visit from them and it went really well, they were impressed that we could actually find and have access to the fosse, ( all the other locals have theirs buried and no inspection access) all the lids were off for them, they were impressed by the 100mm ventilation pipe. They drew a diagram of the position and asked us where it drained to, as it was fitted while we were in the UK 20 years ago we had no plans, it was decided it more then likely drained on our land so that is what they put. No mention what so ever about a grease filter, nor did they ask us for any paperwork, although we did dig out the receipt from Brico marche. They did ask us if it had ever been emptied, we said never in 20 years as it was a holiday home and not occupied all the year, he did check the level of the sh.. muck in the bottom with a state of the art 6ft bamboo stick that I assume is used to hold up his beans in the summer, he was happy with the level of muck in there. (not much) He also had a record of our water usage this confirmed our house as a holiday home. Came inside for a coffee and to use his laptop to update details and to practice his English.In all pleased its over.Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cacknanty Posted November 23, 2010 Share Posted November 23, 2010 Hi, we also have a place in 71 and had the inspection earlier this year. It seems to have been a non-event. The Mayor handled the inspections for the 'foreigners' in the village that weren't there.The 'foreigner' that was there told me that a young lady in a short skirt and high heels came with the mayor, asked a few questions wandered around a bit (keeping to the path of course) asked a few more questions and went off. Now this chap doesn't know where the fosse is on his land, there is no vent pipe, but he did know that a pipe emptied into the dyke at the side of the road and always 'ran clear'. The mayor couldn't find any documentation for his installation either.The mayor did have documents for our fosse but they were incomplete.The end result, all the foreigners installations are fine, here are your invoices for €20, go pay at the Tresor please.A revenue raising excercise if you ask me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Department71 Posted November 23, 2010 Author Share Posted November 23, 2010 Cacknanty, interesting, wish we had your visitor instead of our male. (but maybe not the wife!) some friends over by Tournus had a female also. I take it your water bills come via the local commune, our water is supplied from Veolia and for that priveledge the cost for the visit is 90 euros with I think about 15 euros per year tagged onto the bill for further visits. We went to the meeting before the visit and boy did it explode, the mayor got shouted down, and the water people got a load of stick, why? because of that cost of 90 euro. Wish ours was only 20 euro.Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lizfjr Posted November 23, 2010 Share Posted November 23, 2010 Can you tell me precisely you receive in writing to confirm it's OK? Just had mine emptied for the first time in 7 years I've been here, and I know the previous owners never bothered but have had no controle visit yet. Do you get a piece of paper? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyv Posted November 23, 2010 Share Posted November 23, 2010 What do they do if the owner has no idea of where the fosse is, and it has no obvious inspection hatches? Do they force you to find it (how?), or just shrug, and go away? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Department71 Posted November 23, 2010 Author Share Posted November 23, 2010 Lizfjr,We will sometime in the future receive a written report from the person who inspected it. Don't know when but we have asked them to send it to our UK address. Its a bit of don't hold your breath. A friend who had the visit earlier in the year hasn't received anything yet, but saying that the inspector said they had an huge area they had to check so it could take ages. At least there was no sharp intake of breath and shaking of head when they visited so not worried about the paperwork.Tony, we have been told the official view is you have 4 years to find it before the next visit, then the Mairie will get involved, they will either do it themselves and bill for the work, that way you can be sure you will have a top of the range new system that costs the earth, or they could go to court, but doubt it, more then likely you will be billed for a new supadupa one.But France being France anything could happen, at least if the fosse can be found, if there is one! and everything seems fine it would save an awful lot of moneySteve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patf Posted November 23, 2010 Share Posted November 23, 2010 We have a primitive system which works quite well.We had our inspection 3 yrs ago, a pleasant young man who found the concrete tank and just said it should be emptied, and perhaps a bac à graisse made, otherwise ok.But apparently after reporting back to his (female ) boss it was a different story and we got a long very negative report.Heard nothing since. There seems to be so much regional variation.We had the tank emptied.The only problem would be if we wanted to sell, I believe a report on the fosse system will be included in the seller's pack next year. Then ,it's up to the potential buyer if they will accept the status quo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnOther Posted November 23, 2010 Share Posted November 23, 2010 We had an inspection earlier this year. All was well although nobody knows where the water outlet is other than it's definitely on our land and we are nowhere near any water sources. The ground around here is so porous that when I empty water out of my pool with a 2" dia hose it soaks away within a metre of where it hits !We received a certificate with a photo of the house along with an invoice for €75, not bad for 15 minutes work, a printed digital photo, and a stamp [blink] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thibault Posted November 25, 2010 Share Posted November 25, 2010 We are also in 71 and went to the local SPANC meeting. It was rather heated and the chap from SPANC was terribly patronising to the local farmers who were up in arms at the costs of inspections. One surprising thing we did learn was that "poor" communes pay MORE for the inspections than "rich" communes. This seems absolutely crazy but it is linked to the amount of industry/commerce in a commune. As ours is very small (900 people) and rather poor, we have to pay 150 euros for the inspection - charged at 30 euros per year for five years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Araucaria Posted November 25, 2010 Share Posted November 25, 2010 [quote user="Thibault"]We are also in 71 and went to the local SPANC meeting. It was rather heated and the chap from SPANC was terribly patronising to the local farmers who were up in arms at the costs of inspections. One surprising thing we did learn was that "poor" communes pay MORE for the inspections than "rich" communes. This seems absolutely crazy but it is linked to the amount of industry/commerce in a commune. As ours is very small (900 people) and rather poor, we have to pay 150 euros for the inspection - charged at 30 euros per year for five years.[/quote]Our rural commune is 370 people and we're due to be stiffed €100, all payable at once.At the public meeting the cost was the main concern of the audience. But one of the other topics that seemed to generate a lot of heat related to farmers emptying their own septic tanks and then spraying it on the fields. The departmental official who was there said that septic tanks could only be emptied by licensed operators. He eventually said that as a matter of practice there wasn't any likelihood of SPANC stopping people from doing what they have always done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard51 Posted November 25, 2010 Share Posted November 25, 2010 [quote user="Araucaria"]At the public meeting the cost was the main concern of the audience. But one of the other topics that seemed to generate a lot of heat related to farmers emptying their own septic tanks and then spraying it on the fields. The departmental official who was there said that septic tanks could only be emptied by licensed operators. He eventually said that as a matter of practice there wasn't any likelihood of SPANC stopping people from doing what they have always done.[/quote]That's pretty much the impression we got. We had ours inspected (and failed) two and half years ago. At the time we had no idea where it was. The inspection consisted of bloke in wellies and lady in tottery heels furking about with a depth tester, a soil type sampler and a tape measure, scribbling on a peice of paper which we were asked to sign at the bottom. Paper basically said, inspected, non compliant (no reason) and our signature that we would replace within two years from date of visit. We since found out where exactly it is (renters kids stuffing yards of loo roll down the toilet which caused a blockage). When we dug the thing up (in the lucky one week window between renters) we discovered that the outlet pipes to the bac dégraisseur had been broken (we think by contracters who used the bucket of a digger to access the roof to replace broken tiles). It also hadn't been emptied for some considerable time...despite the assurances of the venders that this would be done before we signed for the property.The upshot. Tank was emptied by a local farmer (cash only - nod and wink...viz not licenced under new rules). Broken pipes were replaced and a new vent installed (to replaced the one cunningly disguised (not) by the tree). The recification date agreed with SPANC of 2 years we were told to ignore. Apparently, the decision to install and extend the mains drainage is made by the local commune. Likewise, they enforce the replacement of non conforming tanks. The bod from our local commune (who is responsible for said decision / enforcement) told us that it's a political hot potato. Many of those with non compliant tanks haven't the money to replace so it's almost impossible to enforce. He also said the date for implementation had already been postponed once because of this - apparently it was originally sometime in 2005? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gluestick Posted November 25, 2010 Share Posted November 25, 2010 2005 was indeed the witching date by which all of France had to be either on mains drainage, or central processing facilities provided by the commune's.I literally fell about with laughter when I first read this back in circa 2000!Just a quick look at a map of France demonstrates the sheer scale of the concept: and particularly since most of the country is rural, not urban.Our tiny commune enjoys registered residents of just 130: and over 100 are retrait: and mainly live in old farm type cottages. Which clearly lack sufficient land for siting a SPANC approved discharge field. In any case, les vieux simply could not afford the costs: and neither could the commune. Nor could the Canton: nor the Departement.According to INED circa 23% of total population reside dans la campagne. So let's assume 70% of those need new fosse septiques in order to conform. (Which is a very generous estimate!).Say the capital cost is € 6.000,00 average (Again pretty generous estimate).Thus someone, somewhere has to find €59 Billion! And change.It seems second homes have become a point to attack, on the basis that if one can afford a second home, ergo one is wealthy: whereas the old retired have been rather left alone.............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachapapa Posted November 25, 2010 Share Posted November 25, 2010 Your premise is incorrect as to what france had to do in 2005 or later.But what interests me is your statement as follows... all of France had to be either on mains drainage, or central processing facilities provided by the commune's......I appreciate that "mains drainage" is a common euphemistic victorian expression used in blighty; the central processing facilities provided by the commune provokes problems of comprehension and in particular the logistics between the sh1ters dwelling and the central processing. Perhaps you were thinking of a daily slop bucket collection, similar to elizabethan times or then again something reflecting the current environmental "tri" with diferent coloured plastic receptacles for urine, excreta and sanitary towels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted November 25, 2010 Share Posted November 25, 2010 Oh, goodie, here we go....Can we anticipate a t*rd measuring contest on this thread next?[Www]Our commune and the neighbouring one have certainly combined together to build a new sewage treatment plant in the last few years "to bring their systems into line with current legislation", but afaik, mains drainage was never mentioned in the requirements (which are EU regs, are they not?) I thought that the fosse regs were to bring them into line, not replace them with mains drainage (ie, to install filter beds or similar and ensure that no grey water or untreated sewage got into the water table.) But I stand to be corrected.Since we bought our house in 2003, we have been anticipating this inspection, not with much glee I must say as although our fosse system was installed in the last ten years, it does not seem to me to be in compliance, even though the tank is new (since the grey water from the kitchen and the bathroom does not go into the main tank, just the stuff from the loo!) So far, nothing, no meetings, inspections, or any other discussions about it locally. Once again one feels it's a political hot potato that the powers that be would rather not even discuss if they can help it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickP Posted November 25, 2010 Share Posted November 25, 2010 5 years ago I asked the Mayor of our little village about the possibility of us having mains drains as I understood that was the proposed system that every one was entitled to. His reply was interesting and truthful, he said " we all have to right to have it' but our commune can't afford it" So five years later nothing has changed, there has been no inspections and so far none are planned, my neighbour commented if they condemn your fosse they will have to condemn everybody else's as well. I asked our local plumber if it was necessary to empty the fosse, he said the French equivalent of "if it ain't broke don't touch it". So I haven't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gluestick Posted November 25, 2010 Share Posted November 25, 2010 I believe it was stated here, JE."Article 3 Member States shall ensure that all agglomerations are provided with collecting systems for urban waste water, at the latest by 31 December 2000 for those with a population equivalent (p.e.) of more than 15 000, and at the latest by 31 December 2005 for those with a p.e. of between 2 000 and 15 000."Source:Our local communes were becoming somewhat exercised at the potential cost for mandatory connection to central processing facilities. Even old farmhouses sited in towns which still used fosse septiques, but had access to mains sewers, were to be compelled to abandon their fosses and pay for connection. Many local small towns have mains sewers. Not sure about outside PdC.One concept mooted and bandied about was the Cantons would provision the treatment facilities: the sheer distance and cost of pipework was awesome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cendrillon Posted November 25, 2010 Share Posted November 25, 2010 NickP wrote the following post at 25/11/2010 16:19: "5 years ago I asked the Mayor of our little village about the possibility of us having mains drains as I understood that was the proposed system that every one was entitled to. His reply was interesting and truthful, he said " we all have to right to have it' but our commune can't afford it" So five years later nothing has changed, there has been no inspections and so far none are planned, my neighbour commented if they condemn your fosse they will have to condemn everybody else's as well. I asked our local plumber if it was necessary to empty the fosse, he said the French equivalent of "if it ain't broke don't touch it". So I haven't."Same problem in our village, the village is in "the red" and there is no money to pay for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachapapa Posted November 25, 2010 Share Posted November 25, 2010 [quote user="Gluestick"]I believe it was stated here, JE."Article 3Member States shall ensure that all agglomerations are provided with collecting systems for urban waste water, at the latest by 31 December 2000 for those with a population equivalent (p.e.) of more than 15 000, and at the latest by 31 December 2005 for those with a p.e. of between 2 000 and 15 000."Source:Our local communes were becoming somewhat exercised at the potential cost for mandatory connection to central processing facilities. Even old farmhouses sited in towns which still used fosse septiques, but had access to mains sewers, were to be compelled to abandon their fosses and pay for connection. Many local small towns have mains sewers. Not sure about outside PdC.One concept mooted and bandied about was the Cantons would provision the treatment facilities: the sheer distance and cost of pipework was awesome![/quote]'agglomeration' means an area where the population and/or economic activities are sufficiently concentrated for urban waste water to be collected and conducted to an urban waste water treatment plant or to a final discharge point; [:D]I really need to say no more for fear of exacerbating the exchange of views.......but definitely outside the terms of reference of a S.P.A.N.C and and a spanc visit.My residential "agglomeration" of 12 houses awaits with interest on the declaration of future EU deadlines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cacknanty Posted November 25, 2010 Share Posted November 25, 2010 I don't understand the huge variation in charges. We pay our water bills direct to Veolia, not via the commune. It is a village of some 62 permanent residents.All these big bills got me doubting if I was correct, so a quick check reveals €20 for Redevance Complementaire Visit. In the heading it does say 'Assainissement Non Collectif Redevance annuelle SPANC 2010'So maybe we will be charged €20 each year, rather than €100 every 5 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cacknanty Posted November 25, 2010 Share Posted November 25, 2010 Just noticed the above was my 100th post. Aren't I the chatty one ......not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnOther Posted November 25, 2010 Share Posted November 25, 2010 Don't forget peeps that getting connected to mains sewage comes at a hefty cost. The price per m3 doubles and then they add almost as much again (service charge) so the overall cost of your water can virtually treble.Me I'm quite happy with a fosse and €1 odd per m3 [;-)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devon Posted November 25, 2010 Share Posted November 25, 2010 Off topic, but I installed a new fosse septique at my place in the Charente Maritime a couple of weeks ago. I emailed the address on the Fosse design information requesting an inspection but no one turned up. Therefore I recorded the work I did with photos and left the filter bed so that the dimensions could be easily checked: can anyone tell me how to contact spanc to come and inspect the tank (also left uncovered) and filter bed? TIA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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